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#1996 - 05/22/08 05:02 PM Stats for skills
Kim Kim enthusiast Registered: 10/11/07 Posts: 204 Loc: Europe	Currently, every skill is based on one stat only. I think this is a bit limiting. Making it so a skill could be based on two or three or more stats should be easy. Just add the stats used together and divide with the number of stats used. For example having knife use dex and rea, and two handed bladed dex and str, and so on.
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#1997 - 05/22/08 05:50 PM Re: Stats for skills [Re: Kim]
Cerberus Cerberus addict Registered: 11/28/07 Posts: 608 Loc: Arlee, MT, USA	That's the way Rolemaster does it. I'm not against it. Go ahead and code it... $\:D$ _________________________ Please mail your views on balance to: cerberus@darkemud.com
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#2000 - 05/27/08 01:36 PM Re: Stats for skills [Re: Cerberus]
Cerberus Cerberus addict Registered: 11/28/07 Posts: 608 Loc: Arlee, MT, USA	Started coding this today. No idea if or when the system will be in. Longer yet for changing skills to it if it does materialize. _________________________ Please mail your views on balance to: cerberus@darkemud.com
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#2009 - 05/30/08 10:23 AM Re: Stats for skills [Re: Cerberus]
Cerberus Cerberus addict Registered: 11/28/07 Posts: 608 Loc: Arlee, MT, USA	This is in. 'help skill attack'. Please comment. _________________________ Please mail your views on balance to: cerberus@darkemud.com
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#2010 - 05/30/08 10:41 AM Re: Stats for skills [Re: Cerberus]
Rancid Rancid newbie Registered: 12/12/07 Posts: 49	Originally Posted By: Harold That's the way Rolemaster does it. I'm not against it. Go ahead and code it... $\:D$ Originally Posted By: Harold Started coding this today. No idea if or when the system will be in. Longer yet for changing skills to it if it does materialize. This sure went in to implementation awfully fast. I think it is a good idea but it sounded like from the first posts that it was going to be a long long time coming and here it is 8 days after its original post and it is being implemented? How does this go from you code it too coding this today dont know when it will go in to 8 days later here it is and deal with it? It is a good idea. I think the idea of skills being determined by a single stat; which is basically a characteristic of a character, is short sighted and frankly quite small minded. However, if skills are going to be changed from what they have been for the past 13 years certain things should be taken in to consideration. Everyone who has played here and those who are just starting to play here have being given a certain idea of what to expect when they train for a guild. IE. An enchanter or necromancer needs less dexterity and probably no reactions or endurance. Or a fighter which I am currently had one skill I was going to use that was based on reactions; therefore, I put no stats in to it because it was not worth the cost. However, now we will be looking at a significant change to the system which is going to require a much more rounded stat choice selection. Where one would totally neglect certain stats because they were of little or no consequence suddenly they are thrust in to the make up of their most pertinent skills. Where one may have chosen one race before because it had the basics of what they needed now that race has terrible short falls lacking in certain stats that are suddenly extremely important. On top of this the idea of adding the significance of stats that were never significant before begs the question of why are more stat points not being added to creation since more stats are going to be added in to the skills? It seems only fair if you are adding significance of previously insignificant stats to skills that you also up the amount of stats to balance it out. Currently the characters are based upon the old rules in the old system. They would have put stats only in to those characteristics that would benefit the skills they were going to train and rightly so. It is only smart to hone your stats for the skills your guild uses. Now those stats are totally different and one would find their characters lacking in certain areas. This would require several more large changes to fix. 1) More state points during character creation. 2) Opportunity(when finished) to choose a race that would be most appropriate under the new system for their skills in consideration with which stats are most important. 3) For those who like their race to get a stat reinc so they can train under the new rules/guidlines. This isn't an outrageous request. People have played under guidelines they were given before and are now having the rugs pulled out from underneath them and told to accept it and there is nothing wrong with it. It is unfair to give people a certain set of guidelines to expect ; and then, suddenly change them. It would be like punishing a child, friend or loved one for breaking a rule that you changed with out ever telling them you were going to change the rule after they lived with those rules for 13 years! I am just surprised this is already implemented. It seems like such big and serious changes would go in slower with more dialogs. -Rancid
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#2011 - 05/30/08 11:19 AM Re: Stats for skills [Re: Rancid]
Xsi Xsi stranger Registered: 12/07/07 Posts: 5 Loc: Bend, Oregon	I think Rancid makes a couple of good points. I agree that his kind of change is a pretty serious game balance shift, that it will have a greater impact than how the issue been treated. Skill's beneficial stats should be taken a look at, some of them don't make sense and should be changed. I also think the idea of multiple stats per skill has possibilities that could make the current rigid stat selections more varied and interesting. I don't think, however, that you can implement something like this, changing something as fundamental as character creation stat allocation, without providing compensation for the players that were created in the old system. I have a couple of questions regarding the goals for this project, and what exactly you expect it to look like: What are your intentions for how character stats should be allocated? Are you trying to encourage more diversity and more balanced characters? Are you trying to make less used stats more common? Do these stats actually make the game more interesting and varied, or should the system perhaps be re-tooled to use a smaller number of base stat categories? Will, as Rancid suggested, the new system require a different amount of allocatable stat points in character creation in order to preserve the current balance? Is the current balance correct, and worthy of being preserved? Do you intend to allow players to re-allocate stats in the new system? Or even as Rancid pointed out, re-pick a race that might be more pertinent to their guild than was previously? How will this effect the balance of the varied buff spells in the game? Will the impact be negligible, or will the balance be shifted in unexpected ways? These are the few concerns I have at this point, but I'm sure there are many more. I realize that many changes get bogged down in bureaucratic nonsense, but there are some serious concerns here, and I don't' think we should take these changes lightly. -Xsi
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#2012 - 05/30/08 11:35 AM Re: Stats for skills [Re: Rancid]
Cerberus Cerberus addict Registered: 11/28/07 Posts: 608 Loc: Arlee, MT, USA	Originally Posted By: Rancid This sure went in to implementation awfully fast. Yes! I thought it would be difficult, but other than being extensive it wasn't. Originally Posted By: Rancid On top of this the idea of adding the significance of stats that were never significant before begs the question of why are more stat points not being added to creation since more stats are going to be added in to the skills? Back when stats over the original 6 were added to the game a significant number of stat points were added to character creation. This is as it should be, since those stats presumably should've had significance immediately. My personal memory is that the number of stat points went from somewhere between 225 and 315 to 450, but I can not confirm that. I don't find that by adding more significance to stats that should already have had enough significance to be on par with previously existing stats but weren't has any effect, direct or otherwise, on the number of stat points that should be available in character creation. The reasons for this seem obvious to me, but I will do my best to explain my views on the topic further. If the additional stat points granted at the inception of the new stats system back in the late 90's have thus far been funneled into higher "core" stats rather than being broadly applied by what a character will likely do in their lifetime, that's by player preference. If the increase in visibility of previously "periphreal" stats has caused those stats to become more necessary, those stat points that have already been granted can be used more judiciously as they were intended, or continue to be applied to more "core" stats as desired. The alteration of the skill system has not in any way impacted the availibility of stat points, only the availibility of bonuses to skills granted through stats. By increasing the overall pool of points assignable to stats in character generation, stats in general would rise. The ramifications of an overall rise are far and above the system of bonuses to skills from stats in question, therefore it does not follow that increasing the pool of points available to be assigned during character creation to stats would be an appropriate measure for mitigating a perceived loss in viability of character stats whether real or imagined. Originally Posted By: Rancid This isn't an outrageous request. People have played under guidelines they were given before and are now having the rugs pulled out from underneath them and told to accept it and there is nothing wrong with it. My personal view is that any request for any reincarnation is outrageous by default. For me, there can be no request made for reincarnation outside of In-Character events that is reasonable because characters are generated according to individual preference. That being said, I am not currently of the opinion that this change could possibly be of a large enough scale to warrant reincarnations. If the previous bonus from attack when dexterity alone was keyed to it was +12 (as far as I'm aware, the maximum possible for any character not counting luck) and that character had minimized all FOUR other stats now keyed to attack (which is extremely unlikely, as strength and endurance were already extremely important for combat) the loss would be 10 points to the attack skill. While that amount is large enough to be questionable as far as low-impact changes go, it is well below anything that I have so far been convinced is "a significant change to the system". In making this change, this was the most extreme case I could find, and I have so far considered even this large change within the parameters for a low-impact change because of its rarity. I am more than willing to hear and discuss evidence to the contrary, or any cases that turn up that I have missed. With regard to changing the guidelines to the game you have my sympathies. It is difficult and at times unfair when what we believe are well-founded decisions turn out to be less effective than we planned based on new information. As stated earlier, I consider this to be a low-impact change, but I have been wrong in the past and will be wrong again in the future. Seeing as only two skills of well over a hundred skills have been changed, I would be open to hear suggestions on how to make this go more slowly and with more dialogue. I put great stock in the community we have here, and want nothing more than to engage everyone fairly in an effort to improve the game. _________________________ Please mail your views on balance to: cerberus@darkemud.com
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#2013 - 05/30/08 11:49 AM Re: Stats for skills [Re: Cerberus]
Cerberus Cerberus addict Registered: 11/28/07 Posts: 608 Loc: Arlee, MT, USA	Originally Posted By: Xsi What are your intentions for how character stats should be allocated? This change has nothing to do with how character stats should be allocated, in my view. My personal belief is that stats should be allocated based on what the player feels their character is best at. Originally Posted By: Xsi Are you trying to encourage more diversity and more balanced characters? In general I believe diversity is the most important thing in terms of characters and will be working toward that end. Diversity in stats isn't part of that - stats should be assigned based on what the player feels their character does best and worst. More stat-balanced characters should be good enough at everything they do, I would think. Originally Posted By: Xsi Are you trying to make less used stats more common? Yes. Originally Posted By: Xsi Do these stats actually make the game more interesting and varied, or should the system perhaps be re-tooled to use a smaller number of base stat categories? Since its inception, the fact that we haven't made significant progress toward incorporating the new stats has made this hard to answer. Theoretically, by having more stats with which to base things on you have more variety. We had 6 stats before the late 90's and the CMS system, when we went up to 11 (originally 12, but perception as a stat was scrapped). We may gain or lose one or two stats, but I doubt it. 11 seems to be right where we're sitting. Originally Posted By: Xsi Will, as Rancid suggested, the new system require a different amount of allocatable stat points in character creation in order to preserve the current balance? No. See my previous post. In short, balance would be undone rather than preserved by having more stat points to allocate to the same number of stats. This would result in having higher stats on average, which I'm sure everyone is aware has far more reaching implications that merely the bonuses to skills afforded through stats. Originally Posted By: Xsi Is the current balance correct, and worthy of being preserved? Balance is not correct, so will be changing over the course of 2008-09 and beyond, as it has always done. The current balance is definitely worthy of being preserved in so far as it is balanced. Both myself and Madoc work hard to avoid shifting balance in significant ways already, and will continue to do so. Originally Posted By: Xsi Do you intend to allow players to re-allocate stats in the new system? Or even as Rancid pointed out, re-pick a race that might be more pertinent to their guild than was previously? No. I am patently against reincarnations for reasons other than IC events. If another administrator wishes to take on the responsibility of reincarnations, that's up to them. My stance will not be to support player reincarnations. Originally Posted By: Xsi How will this effect the balance of the varied buff spells in the game? Will the impact be negligible, or will the balance be shifted in unexpected ways? That's a great question. Buffs that directly affect skills will not have their use altered, but buffs that affected skills indirectly based on their stat bonuses may. For instance, blessing of agility has both a direct skill bonus and a stat component. Since intelligence is now keyed to attack, the bonus granted by blessing of agility's stat portion will deminish - to what degree I don't know, but since the bonuses granted through stats are in all cases much less than those granted through direct skill modifiers the balance will not be shifted in unexpected ways. _________________________ Please mail your views on balance to: cerberus@darkemud.com
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#2014 - 05/30/08 12:06 PM Re: Stats for skills [Re: Cerberus]
Ganelon Ganelon Unregistered	One of the ideas is that different stats should have different weights in the skill. I.e. dex and rea is more important for attack than int. Another is that IMHO endurance should not affect skills directly since it represents not how good you can be at something but how long can yo keep doing something. The effective skill should decrease (non-linearly) as you deplete your FP and END defines how much FP you have.
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#2015 - 05/30/08 12:08 PM Re: Stats for skills [Re: Cerberus]
Kim Kim enthusiast Registered: 10/11/07 Posts: 204 Loc: Europe	Stats being used in skills, for their skill bonus, is one of the least important aspect of stats. Honestly, if anybody set their stats based on what skills they affected, they set bad bad stats. I don't think the complaints have much validity at all.
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