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I believe the different wood types should affect damage on a weapon even if it is a mineral weapon. It would make lumberjack and carpentry worth more to have. |
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I agree with that. A mithril axe with harmon wood that does holy and fire would add another level of depth to the weapon making process. I would suggest though that the boards be of a certain size in order to add the effect though. |
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Hmm, I like the idea of wood adding a different dimension to weapon-making. It seems like something that could be useful for leatherworking too, actually. Better crafted leather on a sword grip could increase accuracy by a trivial amount, etc. Cool stuff. |
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A desper / iys axe combination for a dual wielding CL would be lethal. |
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Crafting of certain weapon types already requires wood, like crafting a mace. This area could be expanded. I certainly think adding value to thinks like carpentry and leather working would make our darke lore all the more intriguing. Its kinda blah and annoying to see that everyone (yes, i'm generalizing and I know it), everyone uses one handed sword if its in their guild, and knife skill if they can't use sword or have a low dev mod. By giving carpentry that extra umph we might find people would take that extra incentive to diversify their arsenal. |
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Originally Posted By: Daniel Crafting of certain weapon types already requires wood, like crafting a mace. Yes. sabu was saying that the wood of such weapons should affect the powers of the weapon. Quote: Its kinda blah and annoying to see that everyone (yes, i'm generalizing and I know it), everyone uses one handed sword if its in their guild Generalizing is okay. Completely wrong generalizations are bad. Everyone uses blade if it's available? I wonder when the last time was that a Nightblade trained blade as their primary weapon. "Everyone" goes knife if it's available because it's the cheapest weapon. Beyond knife, many use axe due to the same cheap dev cost. After that, it's a crapshoot. Essentially, people gravitate to the cheapest weapon available. |
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I wonder if there's any merit to the thought that player's weapon choices would have more variation to them if there were more variation in their capabilities. In other words, everyone trains the lowest dev cost weapon they can for their guild currently because (as I understand it) there are no appreciable differences between weapons after they have been crafted fully (runes and enchantments). By capping the capacity of each weapon, one would have to weigh the benefits of training a cheaper weapon skill against the fact that later in their training that weapon would simply be not as good as a higher capacity weapon type. This is not to say that a knife couldn't be enchanted just as much as a two handed polearm, just that equally crafted items of these different types would be of different power levels in combat. In the hands of equally skilled warriors, the two weapons would be comparable, but a two handed polearm user would have the benefit of dealing more damage (on average - as they would have a higher maximum damage output) while the knife wielder would have (had) the benefit of paying fewer devs for the same amount of skill. I can see this as one way of helping to balance weapons, and am in no way implying that it is up here for anything more than open discussion. Please note this means that there are currently no plans to enact any ideas that may be presented here as changes to Darkemud. This is only spitballing ideas for variation, flavor, and balance. Weapons used are generally the same among all players, as Daniel pointed out (even if he failed to use the proper example), and I for one don't feel this is right with the wide range of weaponry Darkemud has to offer. New players (presuming there are still any truely new players to muds) are often unaware that there is a "best" weapon to choose and, in opposition to the support I've given thus far, this could result in only adding another layer of complexity that will soon be mapped out with a new "best" found, if a poorly made change were carried out. Am I off base (in addition to slightly off topic) in thinking that this might be a servicable idea though? Do weapons even need to be examined for balance, or is it alright that everyone uses the same weapon type(s)? Are weapons in general too powerful, too weak, or is there a wide enough disparity between those who know the best ways to make them and those who don't that it isn't an issue so easily generalized? |
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"n the hands of equally skilled warriors, the two weapons would be comparable, but a two handed polearm user would have the benefit of dealing more damage (on average - as they would have a higher maximum damage output) while the knife wielder would have (had) the benefit of paying fewer devs for the same amount of skill." Maybe on the right track, but not exactly there. I think It'd be a good idea to give some different.. abilities to different weapon types. Like.. SOme weapons good to parry with, others have a penalty. Others are hard to parry against (penalty for the one attacked to parry), some are easier to parry, some are harder to dodge, others easier to dodge. It's easier to dodge while using a knife, while dodging while using a 2h polearm is harder, and so on. Combine it with giving every weapon skill cost 5, and there opens for a lot of variety. Other than that, innate damage (High cutting for axes, low cutting for knifes and so forth) might be looked at. Currently I have no idea how high/low it is. For example for cutting, is the difference between a knife and an axe more than 10% after a nica bonnes? Is it 50%? I mean, logically the difference should be enormous, but this is Darke "Am I off base (in addition to slightly off topic) in thinking that this might be a servicable idea though? Do weapons even need to be examined for balance, or is it alright that everyone uses the same weapon type(s)? " Well, I've wanted to use flail some time.. But it's just too expensive compared to.. anything. |
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I don't think it would be a terrible idea to even remove some of the weapon types. Two handed blunt for instance isn't something I think any of the guilds who have it would wnat to train. Plus, I think it would be easier to give unique properties to weapons, if say Kim's idea was put in, that all skills have 5 dev cost, if some of the weapon types were removed. Not all of them, but just some of the ones that seem kind of pointless. Then again, if they are all kept, and if they were all not made pointless, I suppose that might be better. In some ways, I think the most common weapon types are going to remain the same at least for a little while, no matter what changes are put in, simply because of the availability of most of these weapons. If I made a char who needed blade, I could ask a friend if they have a decent sword. If I made a char who uses say, flail, I don't know anyone, and would have a hard time finding one. I'd for sure have to have it made. |
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Originally Posted By: carmy I don't think it would be a terrible idea to even remove some of the weapon types. Two handed blunt for instance isn't something I think any of the guilds who have it would wnat to train. Plus, I think it would be easier to give unique properties to weapons, if say Kim's idea was put in, that all skills have 5 dev cost, if some of the weapon types were removed. Not all of them, but just some of the ones that seem kind of pointless. Then again, if they are all kept, and if they were all not made pointless, I suppose that might be better. In some ways, I think the most common weapon types are going to remain the same at least for a little while, no matter what changes are put in, simply because of the availability of most of these weapons. If I made a char who needed blade, I could ask a friend if they have a decent sword. If I made a char who uses say, flail, I don't know anyone, and would have a hard time finding one. I'd for sure have to have it made. Originally Posted By: Kim Combine it with giving every weapon skill cost 5, and there opens for a lot of variety. Originally Posted By: Kim Other than that, innate damage (High cutting for axes, low cutting for knifes and so forth) might be looked at. Currently I have no idea how high/low it is. For example for cutting, is the difference between a knife and an axe more than 10% after a nica bonnes? Is it 50%? I mean, logically the difference should be enormous, but this is Darke |
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they are static amounts, i like the idea of runes/enchantments adding % instead of static amount. based on weapon types or even minerals. |
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Well, I only meant that for a weapons "innates"... Fire, cutting and impaling for a mithril longsword for example. Adding something that's not innate should be static. Making weapon type affect ALL crit types added would just lead back to having a few optimal weapon types. |
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Good point, and entirely true. I'm just musing aloud here, so take it with a grain of salt, but what if weapon making worked this way: Materials ========= The material you use adds some level of whatever the crit type innate to that material type is. It is modified by the weapon type you're making, such that javednite's "bone-breaking" crits are better on weapons that do "crushing" damage. Crit types that don't have clear affinities would add a static amount of damage. In this case it's the material you're making a weapon out of having an affinity for the type of damage the weapon you'll be making has an affinity for that matters. Runes ===== The runes that add effects (hit bonus, parry bonus) would add those effects based on weapon type, and ignore mineral. For instance, if a rapier has an innate parry bonus of 5, a parry rune on it will increase it by 5% more than if it is added to a knife with 0 innate parry bonus (keep in mind I made these numbers up) or a hammer with -10 innate parry bonus. In this case, as the mineral case above, the synergy between the weapon type and the rune effect is what matters. Runes that add damage types would take into account the size of the weapon, not whether the weapon already had the damage type on it. For instance if you made a platnite two handed polearm and added an energy rune you'd get a better bonus than if you took a platnite shortsword and added an energy rune. In this case it's the size of the weapon that matters rather than the weapon itself (this would pave the way for storm-giants carrying giant-sized daggers, and sprites carrying halfling-sized spears) Puissance ========= I've gone back and forth on this one in terms of ideas. First I thought instead of adding a min and max range boost it could add just a max range boost. Then I thought the size of weapon should matter so smaller weapons got a larger boost and large weapons got a smaller boost. Then I thought the synergy of a weapon should matter so weapons with very streamlined damage types got a large boost and weapons all over the board got very little boost. Then I thought I'd just vomit up all these ideas and see if anyone wanted to sift through them. Suffice to say, I don't have any idea I think is very good. Accuracy ======== I think this should stay as a static bonus to any weapon. It's too good to marginalize toward anything but mediocrity, and it's not good enough to have a lot of leeway in marginalizing it in the first place. If anyone's got good ideas, I'm all ears. True Weapon =========== True weapon should bring out the best of a weapon rather than just making it hit harder. For instance, a true'd two handed staff should have a vastly different set of effects than a true'd scimitar. So maybe a true'd staff acts as a hit point battery for its wielder, taking the staff's stored hp before the wielder, and the scimitar can 'dance', calling a living weapon copy of itself. Basically the idea here is to make different weapons markedly different when it comes to their build. I know that's already the case (truly skilled weapon crafters can change your experience gain by a factor of 10, I've found), so I don't know what I'd be trying to accomplish with all this. Just some ideas I guess. |
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Originally Posted By: Harold Runes that add damage types would take into account the size of the weapon, not whether the weapon already had the damage type on it. For instance if you made a platnite two handed polearm and added an energy rune you'd get a better bonus than if you took a platnite shortsword and added an energy rune. In this case it's the size of the weapon that matters rather than the weapon itself. I think it should depend on type of rune (damage). I.e. impale, crush, etc. damages should depend on size (and type) of weapon, but electricity, signing, etc. should not. |
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"Runes that add damage types would take into account the size of the weapon, not whether the weapon already had the damage type on it. " Why size...? it makes no sense. Are you thinking a Barbarian's club with Nica bonnes should get more cutting than a knife if Nica bonnes is added? Weird. |
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Yes, I am. The logic is that a larger available surface on which to inscribe a rune allows for more elaborate runes, which translate into more effective runes in my mind. Flawed logic? Not good for balance? Just different? |
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Well, not good for balance maybe. Unless smaller weapons automatically then made for better to hit/parry. Unless you want a situation where everybody just goes for the biggest weapon possible. And a 2 handed club doing better impaling than a rapier if both have nica bonnes does sound silly to me. Maybe make so runes see what innate crit types a weapon nhave (not counting materil) and then.. add a lot more if innate. A club getting a lot more crushing than a rapier from malsa xen, and reverse for nica bonnes. |
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I always saw runes as a very equal thing. A rune adds x amount of damage regardless of what it's on. It's a magical kind of thing, that when added to a weapon, gives it an effect depending on the skill of the tinker. Another way to see it, should armour that is bigger offer more protection when they get armour runes added? Should armour with higher innate AC offer more AC when it's runed? (Maybe it already does, I don't know). The whole thing seems a little silly to me. |
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Originally Posted By: Kim Well, not good for balance maybe. Unless smaller weapons automatically then made for better to hit/parry. Agree with hit, disagree with parry. Parrying two-handed war hammer with a knife is somewhat silly. Originally Posted By: Kim Unless you want a situation where everybody just goes for the biggest weapon possible. And a 2 handed club doing better impaling than a rapier if both have nica bonnes does sound silly to me. Maybe make so runes see what innate crit types a weapon nhave (not counting materil) and then.. add a lot more if innate. A club getting a lot more crushing than a rapier from malsa xen, and reverse for nica bonnes. Funny thing that in late medival time swords (long swords, bastards, etc) were mostly used as crushing weapons rather than slashing/imapling. |
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Right now the way I understand it almost every weapon is the same. A blank 2h club might have a bit more than a blank knife of the same mineral but once they are chanted it makes no difference at all. Should being hit with a flaming sword be the same as being hit by a flaming knife? I don't think so, I think the flaming sword would hurt quite a bit more as there is more flame. In that sense I think Harold has a point with the size of a weapon mattering. I think it would be interesting actually it weapon size and starting crits (including minerals) did make a significant difference in how well the weapon works. Maybe the mineral can amplify any chants. i.e. a ray weapon already has singing on it, so when you cast a banshee on it you get an extra 20% (just tossing a number out there). Likewise a knife with cutting rune would get an extra 20% cutting WC from nicca bonnes/bleeding blade. The type of weapon could also affect the liklihood to hit (say +5% for a knife, but -15% for a 2h polearm) and also give different parry bonuses and penalties as well. This can get very complicated or be very simple. A much more extreme solution would be to add another level of weapon above unsurpassed. Perhaps it would take much more ingots and time (say 10 ingots and 5 hours to forge with a chance of destroying the ingots) and that type of weapon would fully utilize the mineral type by giving a weak TW to the type of crit of the mineral and -TW to all other types. This could also start with 50% wield (again just numbers from my ass) instead of 0% for a blank weapon. Just to add some more variety. Or we could have difficult quests to obtain special materials that would allow for this special forging. Edit: Perhaps solve a puzzle or defeat some guardian in a multi-person quest like we discussed in another thread to obtain some special rock that hardens the minerals extra hard. I'd propose a limit to how often a particular individual could get of this (so that people don't have storehouses of it) and perhaps even make it require a special location to create the blank or forge it. |
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Originally Posted By: Kim Well, not good for balance maybe. Unless smaller weapons automatically then made for better to hit/parry. Unless you want a situation where everybody just goes for the biggest weapon possible. Originally Posted By: Kim And a 2 handed club doing better impaling than a rapier if both have nica bonnes does sound silly to me. Maybe make so runes see what innate crit types a weapon nhave (not counting materil) and then.. add a lot more if innate. A club getting a lot more crushing than a rapier from malsa xen, and reverse for nica bonnes. Am I making sense, or have I rambled off into oblivion yet? I guess we'd really need some numbers to engage in this discussion effectively. My apologies for that. Originally Posted By: Charon A much more extreme solution would be to add another level of weapon above unsurpassed. Perhaps it would take much more ingots and time (say 10 ingots and 5 hours to forge with a chance of destroying the ingots) and that type of weapon would fully utilize the mineral type by giving a weak TW to the type of crit of the mineral and -TW to all other types. This could also start with 50% wield (again just numbers from my ass) instead of 0% for a blank weapon. Originally Posted By: Charon Just to add some more variety. Or we could have difficult quests to obtain special materials that would allow for this special forging. Edit: Perhaps solve a puzzle or defeat some guardian in a multi-person quest like we discussed in another thread to obtain some special rock that hardens the minerals extra hard. I'd propose a limit to how often a particular individual could get of this (so that people don't have storehouses of it) and perhaps even make it require a special location to create the blank or forge it. |
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Originally Posted By: Cerberus First off, I don't see this as a solution at all. In fact, I see it as damn near a new set of problems. I don't like this idea because it seems to take what were initially solutions to the problem Charon outlines in the start of his post and makes it into an entirely different beast. Yeah, a different beast but if we are going to make significant changes to the weapon system I figured I'd spout out some ideas on how to make it more.. interesting. |
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"I'm with Ganelon's assessment on the hit bonus here. If smaller weapons were to get better enhancements from enchantments than larger weapons (as the second idea I regurgitated under the Puissance heading) might it mitigate this effect some?" Not really. It'd create more problems and make smaller weapons superior again (True Weapon is an enchantment, you know). |
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This topic seems based entirely on wooden weapons, but since it's named Carpentry I figured this would be an appropriate post. My apologies if it's too far off topic. I'm interested in seeing the carpentry skill be used for making everyday items like desks (essentially a chest for small items only), chairs (the "rest" or "sit" command making you sit in a chair instead of laying on the floor), and that sort of thing. Does anyone else feel basics like this might be interesting to have as accoutrements for castles/inn rooms? What if higher skills gave you access to different descriptors instead of being allowed to mark the short description? For instance, at low skill you'd wind up with options for a short description of "rough hewn", "shoddily crafted", "wobbly", or "cheap" to tack on to the front of the item's name (chair, or desk). As skills got higher your options would change - "well-crafted", "elaborately carved", "exquisitely crafted", "smooth-worn", "master-crafted", "bent-wood", etc. How about if the item's maker had the option to input the long description upon their crafting, and otherwise it would default to one of however many descriptions were available? Would this be better as features you buy for a castle room, which otherwise wouldn't support the special actions of these items? For instance, marking a room as a 'library' would allow you bookshelves; a 'study' would allow chairs and desks, a 'foyer' would allow couches and lounges, etc. Or is it something that should be skill dependant and can work anywhere it's set down? Or is it something that should be forgotten completely? |
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Originally Posted By: Harold Would this be better as features you buy for a castle room, which otherwise wouldn't support the special actions of these items? For instance, marking a room as a 'library' would allow you bookshelves; a 'study' would allow chairs and desks, a 'foyer' would allow couches and lounges, etc. Or is it something that should be skill dependant and can work anywhere it's set down? Or is it something that should be forgotten completely? More things to use to express yourself (and your environment) the better. I wouldn't forget about this. I wouldn't say that this is a huge thing. It would be fun. I'd use it. I don't think one should have to "mark" rooms to enable certain things. It feels restrictive...what if I want a bookshelf in my study? Or a desk in my library? It seems like an unnecessary set of restrictions, to enable only certain furniture in certain rooms. The "library" and bookshelf idea DID get me thinking: What about allowing bookshelves, in castles, that can hold player-made books? Instead of wizards having to hard-code books submitted by Garkin, how about players being able to buy "blank books" (like the blank scrolls that exist) and players can write in them. Perhaps allow functionality for adding pages, where each page acts a bit like scrolls do now. And perhaps make a way to duplicate them (perhaps at a cost...Gutenberg comes to Darke) so that books can be distributed...for free, as a saleable item (if any of us are good enough writers that people would pay mcgrail to read what we produce), whatever. If the printing press idea is implemented, perhaps make that also a piece of furniture that can be bought or made in a castle. Or not. Just a thought to keep this more on topic. Books fun. |
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How about being able to make the obvious thing? Chests. It could require X wood of at least Y size, and an ingot or two. Skill (Carpentry AND blacksmith) would determine how much the chest could hold, and wood/ingot type could decide weight.... And You should be able to featherweight it too. Also, of course, it would be like store chests, without a lock until a lock is installed. Also, I think fighters should get bash lock back. But bashing the lock on a chest created using Laen should be near impossible, or at least never take less than an hour. Similarly for vault doors. Oh, on that note, tinker locks should require an ingot to do. Installing using a laen ingot on a vault door = near unbashable. Iron on a wood door = not so impossible. *rambles on* |
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Originally Posted By: Minstrel What about allowing bookshelves, in castles, that can hold player-made books? Instead of wizards having to hard-code books submitted by Garkin, how about players being able to buy "blank books" (like the blank scrolls that exist) and players can write in them. Perhaps allow functionality for adding pages, where each page acts a bit like scrolls do now. And perhaps make a way to duplicate them (perhaps at a cost...Gutenberg comes to Darke) so that books can be distributed...for free, as a saleable item (if any of us are good enough writers that people would pay mcgrail to read what we produce), whatever. I like this idea a lot actually. Some of the more infamous figures like the Crimson Rose might want to leave detailed reports behind. |
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Originally Posted By: Kim How about being able to make the obvious thing? Chests. It could require X wood of at least Y size, and an ingot or two. Skill (Carpentry AND blacksmith) would determine how much the chest could hold, and wood/ingot type could decide weight.... Originally Posted By: Kim And You should be able to featherweight it too. Originally Posted By: Kim Oh, on that note, tinker locks should require an ingot to do. Installing using a laen ingot on a vault door = near unbashable. Iron on a wood door = not so impossible. Originally Posted By: Kim Also, I think fighters should get bash lock back. But bashing the lock on a chest created using Laen should be near impossible, or at least never take less than an hour. Similarly for vault doors. |
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"He's also got wooden shields and wooden shoes (clogs) concepted - might make these available too." Wooden shields is excellent and a near-must. In the olden days, a lot of shields were wood. Sometimes with a leather cover, sometimes with just a small centerpiece of metal. Sometimes pure wood. I think wooden shields should be implemented as soon as possible, really. |