Onslaught (stranger) 09/10/08 08:38 PM	Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	Mactorg asked me to post this hear. I've brooched the issue with madoc as well. This mud doesn't properly function without a player base, but more importantly, a character base. With so few players, each person is virtually a monopoly in anything they choose to do. This discourages competition, interaction, and all around fun in playing the mud. And that is assuming that someone is even filling a necessary role (can you say no weapon tinker in existance that plays?) This is devestating to the survival of Darke in so many ways, and who can disagree? I've talked with admins in detail about the pluses and minuses of allowing alts, and right now there's a 37 day delay in hiatus system. I've proposed either removing this down to 1 day 2 days 7 days, something drastically more reasonable, and easing up on the rules on hiatus to allow more variation and production and economy in the mud. You can't hope to attract new players when they can level all the way to high mortal using an iron weapon because no weapon tinkers exist. The excuse of "well there's crafted items out there" really is a sad excuse. We all want to encourage activity,interaction and fun on the mud, let's open this up so resources are more readily available. Let's greatly tune down or eliminate the hiatus. Let people have 3-5 people in hiatus and give them a 1-7 day turnaround in changing their characters. 37 days is eternity in mud life, and there just is NOT enough people on darke to support a realistic economy that it needs to be truely enjoyable. Please post your thoughts. I think Madoc implied that he liked the idea, but wanted more feedback. mactorg referred me to post here too. Onslaught
carmy (member) 09/11/08 12:38 AM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	I think that it's a great idea. Frankly, I don't know if the pbase is going to go up again anytime soon, so it might actually be a permanent solution. As it is, just about everyone shares equipment between their hiatus chars anyway because there isn't much left for people to use, unless you're part of the group that's looted everyone. When I wanted to make weapons for my char, it took me over 3 months, and I was an armour tinker and had an elementalist in hiatus that I used. That's rediculous. I shouldn't have to wait 3 months to make weapons when I have the resources and the characters to do it. Let's not even get started on armour. Frankly, I don't see why there aren't NPCs to offer better goods than iron at elevated prices, but that's a different topic.
MacTORG (enthusiast) 09/11/08 08:19 AM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	I have several varibles to adjust, one is the amount of days and the other is the amount of slots. and it is very eazy to adjust as needed. should we start out things at the smallest number and work up? or start half way? it is still limited to 29 level or above before being able to hiatus that player.
MacTORG (enthusiast) 09/11/08 09:16 AM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	Ok, I have done some thinking and I will be adjusting the Hiatus system in 3 settings with each setting lasting one month in real time. So the first month from 9/11 to 10/11 will be set to the following: Min Hiatus real life days : 1 Player level is still 29 overall. Next month 10/11 to 11/11 will be set to the following Min Hiatus real life days: 3 And from 11/11 to 12/11 it will be set to: Min Hiatus real life days: 7 After that I will do a poll and see how people like it and I will make a perm choice, but it can be adjusted later on as things change.
MacTORG (enthusiast) 09/11/08 10:28 AM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	just thought about this, but if a person had 3 players in hiatus they could do 3 player changes in one day every day with a 1 day min hiatus time. am I correct in this? maybe we should start out at 3 days since the max slots is 3.
MacTORG (enthusiast) 09/11/08 10:35 AM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	I think we are going to do it in a shorter time at 15 days for 2 months, then 7 days at 1 month and 3 days at two weeks. this will give me some data to work from.
Onslaught (stranger) 09/11/08 12:08 PM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	Mactorg solution is simple even with 1/3/7 simply have a shared delay system. Ergo, if you hiatus 'any' character you can't take any of your other 3 out for 1 3 or 7 days. That prevents you having multiple chars on same day etc etc. 1 day may be too short, 3/7 seems reasonable but that's just my opinion....1 day could even be good but really not necessary.
Onslaught (stranger) 09/11/08 12:09 PM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	this way we can avoid having the 15 day hammer in this mix? seems a bit long lol
Byakko (stranger) 09/11/08 01:29 PM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	This is essentially allowing multis for creation/crafting type guilds. The whole point of the hiatus system was to allow players a chance to do something else when they needed a break from their primary character. While I understand the intent of this change is to allow players a way to more easily access products which currently are unavailable due to the low player base, the likely negative side effects outweigh the benefits: 1) A loss of interaction and bartering. When one or two players can completely supply their own needs, there is little need to negotiate with others. 2) A reduction in full time crafters. Why play a tinker/chanter when everyone has an alt to switch to make their own things? This will harm newbies the most, since they are the ones most in need of the "usuals" being around. 3) Devaluation of crafting labor. Granted, the cms system combined with the ability to craft and fight simultaneously has already made most crafting essentially free. But this is just the final nail in the coffin. 4) Favors those with greater play time excessively. At least before you could play a guild with few players and be useful. Now, those guys who can mud 150 hours a week will have an alt in your guild that will render you pointless. 5) Removes an incentive to convince a friend to play. No need to convince a friend to come play a chanter when you can just make one as an alt. In addition, I question the validity of your justification for this change. You make it sound as though the essential equipment for play is being monopolized and is hard to acquire. But in reality, tinkers are the most common guild and convincing them to make things isn't -that- challenging, especially if you're actually willing to pay for it. Enchanters, while certainly an added bonus, are not essential for survival, and there's a decent number of them too. And remember, you already have the option to hiatus to a different guild if there's something you just can't live without - the restriction of you having to play them for a while only helps the market if there's truly a shortage of that good.
MacTORG (enthusiast) 09/11/08 01:47 PM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	True it would be more of a bennifit to have others come and play and help out with things. it is a nasty point of any mud, automate more and have npc produce better products or find players via advertizing and other avenues to bring players on board. I am working on a new front page for darkemud.com and doing some local advertizing at the local college here in my town. I will keep this mud going for a long time and we are not going anyplace, and if things work out well, my sons will keep the server going even longer than I will. I know some of this issue is because of a system crash that causes equipment to be lost. if it wasn't for the iron issue to all restored equipment from backups it wouldn't be to bad of an issue. but I would think we should beable to fix that in another way. have it restore from backups automatically via an lpc and external command that will put the right files in the right location directly on live without doing all the manual unarchiving and copy over of the objects and room data. I think I am off topic a little bit.. but what can we do to either fix this issue of equipment requirements or recovery of the equipment from backups. I can do some stuff for the recovery of items from backup, but it is a major task because I don't think we have external cmds working with this version of the driver. so it would have to be something that is ran every so often like we do for the emailing of passwords. as for advertizing that is something I am willing todo and even put a magnetic sign on my car around town! anything to promote things, but at the same time we have things that need fixing and if we get an influx of players and then piss them off with bugs then we lose a chance. ok, enough random chats from me. what do you think?
Onslaught (stranger) 09/11/08 02:10 PM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	I don't intend to be rude, but I think your comments are completely niave. Not because you intend to be but you clearly either aren't playing lately, or aren't capable of taking on the perspective of a: new players or b: players who haven't been here for 8 years and have ridiculous stored gear capabilities (or insert however they have access) --- 1) A loss of interaction and bartering. When one or two players can completely supply their own needs, there is little need to negotiate with others. *** What bartering are you talking about? We have 1 active armour tink, who charges 1 MILLION mcgrail to have a thranx armour suit crafted (this doesn't even count TA and fort costs). Not because he's a dick, but because _he can_ he's the only show in town, we have no choice. How long do you think it takes to earn 1 million mcgrail? Forget weapons and anything else. There is no bartering because there is no player base. There are exactly 0.0 weapon crafters that are active. This means weapons and weapon runes are 100% unavailable on this mud. How can you even think this proposal has a negative side effect in this area when these resources simply aren't available, *period* to be bartered for, and mcgrail has absolutely no value because of it. Do you expect someone to spend 1,000 hours, earning mcgrail just to get laen crafted which can be looted in 20 seconds? Get real. All of your arguments in this debate fall completely flat i the face of darkemud reality. --- 2) A reduction in full time crafters. Why play a tinker/chanter when everyone has an alt to switch to make their own things? This will harm newbies the most, since they are the ones most in need of the "usuals" being around. *** This will benefit newbies most. I just restaretd after 1.5 years (dorne/corsix) and the only reason I'm even capable of playing is because some random guy I didn't know donated gear to me. The only enchanter/tinekr that could chant and make weps and high end stuff was removed for multiplaying (justified, but crushign to those of us who have not) --- 3) Devaluation of crafting labor. Granted, the cms system combined with the ability to craft and fight simultaneously has already made most crafting essentially free. But this is just the final nail in the coffin. *** Devaluation of labor? I'm having to pay 170,000 mcgrail for 9 armour runes that take probably 8 minutes to do. Again, do you even play this game? Or are you just talking theory craft here? --- 4) Favors those with greater play time excessively. At least before you could play a guild with few players and be useful. Now, those guys who can mud 150 hours a week will have an alt in your guild that will render you pointless. *** What interactive game in existance doesn't reward those who play more often than others? I don't see how this comment applies to anything in this thread. --- 5) Removes an incentive to convince a friend to play. No need to convince a friend to come play a chanter when you can just make one as an alt. *** You're acting like every player who plays darke is going to be inclined to have 6 or 7 alts at level 30+ to suit every possible need and scenario. Not to mention the fact that you can't lock from your own hiatus enchanter, (amoung other things) --- In addition, I question the validity of your justification for this change. You make it sound as though the essential equipment for play is being monopolized and is hard to acquire. But in reality, tinkers are the most common guild and convincing them to make things isn't -that- challenging, especially if you're actually willing to pay for it. Enchanters, while certainly an added bonus, are not essential for survival, and there's a decent number of them too. And remember, you already have the option to hiatus to a different guild if there's something you just can't live without - the restriction of you having to play them for a while only helps the market if there's truly a shortage of that good. **** I'm just throwing out this entire paragraph here at the end as, well....see the above. I really am not trying to insult you but it's hard to have a basis for debate when you don't seem to grasp the basic realities of the game we're both playing.
Byakko (stranger) 09/11/08 02:46 PM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	Onslaught: I'm sorry you haven't had the easiest time here on darke... perhaps your lack of networking skills is at the root of your troubles. I am neither naive nor out of touch with darke, and my points are all extremely relevant. Instead of looking at your own personal hardships, try to see the bigger picture. Making this change so that someone like you can easily get restarted is not necessarily in the best long term interest of the mud. Your argument is also a fallacy in that you assume that this is the only option to the problem you present. There are other solutions, and ones that don't have the drawbacks previously pointed out. Here are some ideas off the top of my head (which may or not be good - it's just brainstorming): 1) Better NPC services and found items (but strictly inferior to those provided by players) 2) Finding ways to promote darke and acquire new players, or making it more accessible by providing an appealing web-based interface 3) Creating spells and skills in other guilds which have similar effects to other guilds so essential things are more accessible. These alternative guild replacements should be strictly inferior and non-stackable with what they're standing in for. For example, elementalists could have a spell that grants TA vs specific elements to a target for *power hours. (but that doesn't stack with TA if a player's armour has it). There are actually quite a few skills and spells like this already, but they could be expanded on. 4) Permanent player shops. Being able to place items up for sale for long durations would make it easier for newcomers to find and purchase items and would have a natural competitive price element to it. Finally, there is no need to get angsty simply because someone disagrees with you. Saying that you don't intend to be rude typically means you are being rude and know it, but don't want to be called on it. With your limited experience of the game, you should be more considering of other's perspectives. We're all trying to work towards a better darke here after all...
Onslaught (stranger) 09/11/08 02:54 PM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	I'm not getting antsy at all. And my comments may seem insulting because I simply don't think you ahve any grasp of this game. When you can sit here and tell me that quicker hiatus will devalue currency and labor, in a game where mcgrail has absolutely no value and people are paying 1 million mcgrail for suits of armour (not even complete suits mind you). This tells me you have absolutely no grasp on reality of this game. It's not even an insult it's just a fact. If lowering hiatus levels has all these effects, then by your logic the entire hiatus system should in itself be removed, as the delay time has no real bearing other than 'the time it takes' to cause all these same problems. You can't attract new players to a mud that is logistically not viable to play. There are tons and tons of other mud solutions that new gamers will go to that they don't have to spend 6 months developing a 'network' of friends jsut so they can compete in pvp or something. I'm sorry I just don't understand any of your comments or how they apply to this mud whatsoever. This "network" skill you seem to be talking about. How about you answer some basic questions since a logic debate is clearly not getting through to you. Right now, who shoudl I "network" with to get weapons and weapon runes? - answer, there is no one Why should a new player who logs in stay in this game if the above sentance is true? - answer, he won't, he'll find another mud where he can actually get a weapon to fight with that doesn't suck. This game is entirely completely about resources and resource management. And the primary one being players. You're not going to attract new players when you can't even provide them a workable game environment, and that's what you clearly don't grasp. Again, I coulud go on and on but it almost seems pointless when we clearly don't have the same priorities goals or any common ground to have this debate with. Let's just agree to disagree.
Valens (stranger) 09/11/08 03:21 PM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	Onslaught's plight is no different than any other new player, so it is not that unique. I too, would love to have a weapon crafted, or better armor made, but as a new player, I have no chance of getting that done because I have VERY limited ways of making money (I am an enchanter, but don't have any high level enchants yet and I can't kill anything to earn the cash via combat). Have you started a new character in the last few days? If not, then I have to say you are out of touch with how it is getting started. I don't think anyone is suggesting that this solution be permanent, and never changed or modified. So this is not a long-term solution, only short term. I can say, it is hard to recruit new players when you give them very little to start with, and no way to ever 'get the good stuff'. Your brainstorms are ok, but not a tangible solution, with the exception of the NPCs, which would have to either a) be so expensive to be prohibitive again, or b) cheap enough to use, that it would continue to devalue crafting/economy. Creating spells in other classes is a BAD idea, then no one would need anyone else, and all your complaints against reducing the hiatus time apply to this arguments, but even more. Player shops are a cool idea, as long as there are players available to put stuff up there and for prices that are reasonable and do not continue to trash the economy. Again, this is our problem. I think lowering the hiatus time is a good idea, linking all the hiatus timers together so you will always have to wait the specific time, I think 1 day is too short, I would lean towards 3-7 days, with 5 being my choice. You still have the max hiatus character rules and levels, which could be modified as well. Just my 2 cents...well maybe 1, I will post more later I suspect. Valens
Byakko (stranger) 09/11/08 03:33 PM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	The lack of value of mcgrail is indeed a problem (as I originally stated). However, it is also easy for a tinker to make things. If a tinker is charging you 1 million mcgrail for a suit, it sounds like he either doesn't like you, or simply has no real need for mcgrail (again, the lack of value of mcgrail should be addressed... but is perhaps beyond the scope of this thread). I am convinced that if you put enough effort into networking and making friends you can find a way to get the equipment you need, perhaps without even having to pay anything. I know of quite a few players who are on a lot who either can make, or have access to equipment. The requirement for social interaction and teamwork is one of the reasons to play multiplayer games and should be encouraged rather than sidelined. I don't know of any games where you have access to the best equipment from the get-go. You either have to find or trade for upgrades as you progress. What fun would a game be if you simply had a free ticket for everything? I have played as a low leveled character with nothing but iron and things like dwarven chain. It's difficult, but viable. As it should be as a new character just starting out. Most new players I have spoken with are more concerned with figuring out the game vice power-leveling and the pace is appropriate for them. So your concern for new players quitting over not having access to the best gear is unfounded, imho. Indeed, it typically serves as something to encourage them to play more - something to strive towards. The current Hiatus system is meant to add spice to an experienced player's gaming by allowing them to play something different for a while. Granted, it is occasionally used for ulterior purposes, but per the rules you're not supposed to share things between your characters. Allowing rapid changing between a large variety of characters would be far more prone to use for alts for crafting/creating purposes which would heighten the associated problems. btw, I really doubt that you're convincing anyone that I have "no grasp of this game." Try to be a little more constructive, instead of resorting to insult-flinging.
Byakko (stranger) 09/11/08 03:42 PM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	Valens: Getting started isn't supposed to be extremely easy. Things can be done to make it easier if that's the consensus, 'tho. However, as a new enchanter striving to increase in power, is hiatusing to yet another new character something that really interests you? Your path to better equipment will likely come far faster by sticking to your guns, and achieving a high enough enchanter level that you can trade for other things you need. I have already seen you working on this, so it's just a matter of time. The key to using alternatives (whether NPC or alternate class skills/spells) is to always have them handicapped/limited in some way to make the primary's much more highly desired. You are indeed right in saying that having duplicates would have the same negative effects as the multi-hiatusing. The main point is that there are alternatives to this, if things truly get that bad on darke (which imho, it isn't right now). There has also historically been a problem with making "temporary" fixes. They tend to become permanent no matter what the original intent, especially if it's something that makes a player's life easier, as this would. (btw, make a game too easy and it will ultimately no longer be fun to play and lose players despite the initial rush of interest - there are many examples of this)
Onslaught (stranger) 09/11/08 03:49 PM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	Byakko just enough already, your opinion is really invalid in 120% of any possible logic. You're arguing that everything is ok on a mud that averages 8 players, that'se based upon the importance of player driven economy. there's just no point debating this any more
Byakko (stranger) 09/11/08 04:05 PM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	I have never once said that this mud is ok. It is far from it. However this change is something that will harm not help. Regardless, you are straight up resorting to insults and putting words in my mouth rather than having an intelligent conversation. And you say I'm the one without logic... I will agree that there is no point "debating" this with you any more, however.
Kim (enthusiast) 09/11/08 04:35 PM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	Don't mean to be rude Onslaught, but you are arguing from an "I want a free sandwich" point of view. You don't need TA-ed laen to do combat. You don't need the best possible weapon either. Darke has developed a culture of "if it isn't the absolute best I don't want it". "We have 1 active armour tink, who charges 1 MILLION mcgrail to have a thranx armour suit crafted (this doesn't even count TA and fort costs). Not because he's a dick, but because _he can_ he's the only show in town, we have no choice." So play an armour tink for a little while. Seems like there could be a market for it. 1 million for a thranx suit with most runes seems quite reasonable to me too. And AFAIK there's two active armour tinks.
carmy (member) 09/12/08 01:34 AM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	The honest truth here is that if the game isn't made easier to start on, nobody's gonna start on it. I was a semi-active weapon tinker and cided when I was looted. I don't want to spend all that time getting shit back, shit that took me 3 months to get. Depending on the guild you choose (Which, I think you should have the option of playing anything you want and it being a viable choice) you aren't really able to do combat to earn mcgrail. Once you get the mcgrail, it's true, people aren't going to do you any favors. The ones who are in a position to do you favors are complete fucking assholes. Go figure. I also realize that there are a hell of a lot of tinkers on the MUD right now, but it's still difficult to get them to make stuff for you when they're not particularly 'active'. As it is, this MUD requires a hell of a lot of work for very little reward. On a MUD where there are rarely social interactions at all, and it's about individual gain, there isn't anything to gain, and what you can gain, is at this point, close to impossible to gain. I really think that making NPCs that can do chants, or crafting if provided the materials is a great answer to the problem. If each new player were provided with free iron equipment and a basic weapon they could use to gain some mcgrail and 'equip' themselves from these NPCs, then they'd be on their way to at least earning what they need to compete in the economy as it is now. I also feel this option gives each guild an equal opportunity to earn mcgrail at the start. I don't see any drawbacks to having shitty NPC crafters and enchanters. It won't detract from player interactions because if you want decent equipment, only players will be able to provide it. Player run shops would be great too, so that when you play in South Korea, you don't need to wait for someone in America to log on to buy certain goods. A 13 hour difference is the difference between playing alone and playing with other people.
Onslaught (stranger) 09/12/08 10:06 AM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	Very well said Carmy And in response to this byaku guy, it's the same tired old argument people like you always post here. "you just want a free lunch" nonsense. Yeah you don't need ta'd laen to fight, and you don't need tinker weapons and you don't need enchantments (yeah right) Hell we coudl all run around in npc iron gear and wack on snotlnigs until we're high mortal too, but it sure does make for a pathetic mud. This hiatus change will do nothing but stimulate the mud. The people who seem to think this isn't the case is those with stockpiles of gear and enchantments (go figure)
Cerberus (addict) 09/12/08 10:21 AM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	I like Mactorg's idea of limited testing of shortened hiatus times between characters, and second whoever it was that said each character could be tied to that same timer so you couldn't hiatus/unhiatus all 3 of your characters in the same day. As an area coder I've made a conscious effort to make mobs that have a chance of dropping items that are slightly improved from basic iron. Some are just mineral versions, others have special properties like damage types or hit bonuses etc. I don't believe it's common knowledge where or how often these items are found otherwise I imagine they'd be in guild treasuries for newbies... It's very difficult as a new player with limited resources and zero game experience to just go around finding stuff that makes their character better. It's even more difficult to find players who will make things for someone with limited resources. I believe I saw someone with an idea on equipping newbies with basic gear they can fight with, and I believe I will have the time very soon to start coding again from that idea. I will do my best to make newbie friendly moves for this mud because it is very difficult to get started here if you don't already know the place.
Onslaught (stranger) 09/13/08 10:33 PM	Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
	Cerebus all godo points, though the root of darke's problem is far more large in scope than difficulty for newbies, this issue isn't really a newbie issue. Mud's are designed for player interaction, darke is no acception. You have factions, groups of friends, warring groups or idnividuals combating each other or helping each other, this is all part of playing. The fewer players/resources darke has the less interaction becomes possible to any extent. Any serious pvp action that would occur on Darke would probably shatter the majority of it's player base because you either have everything you need, in spades, or you don't. Even if you do, much of what you have, isn't replaceable, or would take eons to replace. If someoen looted your rays banshee weps, you are effectively powerless against that person or anyone else until you replaced them (or if you have spares). This can make for interesting times, but when 1 person ont he game has true weapon (or no one currently active does, or they only login when their buddies need it etc) player run shops are cool, but won't really solve this as money has no value on darke. When a tinker has everything he needs gear wise, there's no reason for him to sacrifice his exp/hour and put low level runes on things for anything but absurd cash. I'm not saying each person being an island unto themselves makes for a good mud, but at least it opens up avenues where players can be more competitive against each other without having us all have to be one big happy love family because that's the only way we can all get what we need. The fewer the players, the more power the players need to have resource wise to keep the game intersting. This is just my opinoin I guess.