ShadowraithAdministrator
(member)
12/14/07 07:22 AM
Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

Ok, I was not for a pwipe originally, but lots of people seemed ok with it and it would make life easier from a balance perspective. Now I have a number of people saying no pwipe.

So please vote on the options below. This is NOT binding, the admin staff (not just me) will make the final call, but we really do care what you guys think.

Also feel free to comment in this thread about this topic.


Guinness
(stranger)
12/14/07 08:48 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

Well, if lot of those changes that I've seen on the forum implemented, I would to see full reset. Another option to let all players above some certain overall level to do REINCARNATE.

But if some guild will be removed, where this CHAR should go?

So, my options are:
1. Do lot of changes and full PWIPE.
2. Do some fixes, and keep all characters alive (may be castles as well).

Regards,
-Guinness


Muod
(member)
12/14/07 09:14 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

I think a full wipe is needed also if the crafting guild does go in, then it would definately need to be done. I'm against a equipment/mineral wipe and keeping chars, because then it just means some people will have huge advantages because of the char they have. I believe in an even field.

Charon
(enthusiast)
12/14/07 09:23 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

Agreed. We can't reinc HUGE people into other guilds. That just causes all kinds of problems. Maybe a half-level reinc for those in guilds that are going to be wiped out would be ok.

Anyhow, it sounds like the crafting guild isn't going to happen. But we still do have a lot of new content coming out, the first area will likely be elm's farm which will be for newbies/lowbies but is very exciting. Cerberus is doing a fantastic job on it and I'm very excited about the progress.

I think everybody will enjoy it.

Also Wylliam has created a method of creating NPCs that from what I can see is simply amazing so I think you will start to see some very interesting mobs that will suprise you ;\)


Xanthrax
(stranger)
12/14/07 09:50 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

An equipment and mineral wipe won't solve anything. There's still going to be the huge powerhouse players and all the equipment is just going to be remade within a week. All that would do would provide an income for some tinkers. Even so a lot of people are connected and would get it back for free.

I think a pwipe would level the playing field again. Last one was 8 years ago. But I do think that any major bugs/new ideas/new areas that can be implemented should be finished before the pwipe.


Ganelon
(journeyman)
12/14/07 10:01 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

Just what will pwipe solve exactly? People who can stay on 15+ hours a day will still be at the top in no time at all and everything will be as it is. Powerhouse players become such not through some kind of miracle that will never happen again.

Muod
(member)
12/14/07 10:08 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

"Also Wylliam has created a method of creating NPCs that from what I can see is simply amazing so I think you will start to see some very interesting mobs that will suprise you ;\) "

i agree wylliams method is good, it'll be easy to incorprate into a general lib to have basically two ways to create npcs.


Xanthrax
(stranger)
12/14/07 10:15 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

If certain people are willing to be on for 15+ hours a day then I think they deserve to be at the top. I don't have that kind of time because of classes and whatnot. But if you live and breathe darke....more power to them if they make HM in a week

Kim
(enthusiast)
12/14/07 10:19 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

Since it's been said enchanters and tinkers will only be removed and replaced by.... this crafting guild if there is a pwipe, I am against a pwipe strongly. Darke without enchanters and tinkers isn't Darke. This just boils down to trying to make Darke into a completely different mud.

If it was just areas, buffers and other things being tweaked, I'd be for one, especially buffers back would need one. I don't think some people realise just how much XP was gained by a few characters without it....


Muod
(member)
12/14/07 10:21 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

how about just combing the tinker and chanter guild into one guild but not making it like how the crafter guild was, you would have to join the new guild and it would be your guild.

Kim
(enthusiast)
12/14/07 10:30 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

"how about just combing the tinker and chanter guild into one guild"

Ewww no, putting ALL weapon and armour skills and spells into one guild would be just as bad... No need to know more than one person.... Forging and enchanting feels so very different too.


Why is there this urge to do this? Enchanters are fine, Tinkers are pretty OK too...


Muod
(member)
12/14/07 10:34 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

i was just giving alternatives, i'm fine with them staying as is as well, i've always liked tinkers. and i cannot be a chanter i've tried and failed many times.

MacTORGAdministrator
(enthusiast)
12/14/07 10:50 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

We need to get the list of all the changes that will be put in. with a pros and cons. the pros for a pwipe and the cons for a pwipe. and what can be done if a pwipe isn't completed. and a list of what can be done with a pwipe.

We have alot of things to balance out. I don't know much about the balancing because I have never been a player on the mud. so I am not in a possition to make those kind of choices. But I do see the need for some kinda change. That is why the tinker changes went in because of lack of wizards at the time, and the need for some sort of change.

Sorry for the writing, got a C in english grammer, plus english isn't very logical anyway. so pushing out ideas and all as I am typing. so forgive me on that.

I see alot of great changes that we can put in, but with those changes comes growth in other areas. I have seen Darke grow and change as time goes on, but in spurts. Real life can be a pain, and that pain results in not enought time todo things in a true programming project.

Lets get two list on what can be done if a pwipe is done and one that doesn't have a pwipe.

the list without a pwipe will be put in a new topic with those additions from wizards that are able to help with the changes for the pwipe. it takes alot more time on the wizards side to do things that will not affect the players and be tested to make sure it doesn't bug them out.

the list with a pwipe will be in another topic with those additions from wizards that can help with the changes. it will be done faster because we don't have to consider the conversion of those player files and or equipment that is current in the game.

I think the best way would be to get that text in place for all to read. we had an informal meeting thursday night and talked about things. but I think we need to ahve another one to get these two lists together to be posted at once on the forum to be discussed.

I want to hear all sides of this issue so we can all make the choice, but again, those doing the changes have a large say in things because it is the coders time and swet that is put into the mud to keep it going and running smoothly as much as possible.

It is a wonderful gift to get coders that can spend time on the mud they love to better it. and the more we can get into play with the least amount of pain is great, but sometimes change is good. it sparks conflict and growth and new ideas and new friendships.

I personally don't like conflict because that is the way I am. but without putting down the hammer sometimes things get stagnet.

in a since we are a family of mudders. and we need to work as much as we can to make this place a better place for all. Newbies as well need to be considered because without them, things get stagnet as well. need influx of players brings new ideas and new teams to try to take the lead on controlling things in the land of darkemud.

Plus I like to see a more hard core kinda things on the lib. I think the harder it is the funner it is, but with that fun comes pain. and when someone gets to the top it is even more of a thrill. I personally like the one death rule. in the since that if you can get resz'd in a few minutes your player dies perm. but with that death comes points that help you in the new creation process. kinda like family tree benifits. based on the level and or power of the player that died. those benifits could be used to help your next gen player with creation or special skills or family trates or talents.

but that is some other ideas and not sure if they will be worked on.

We all have great ideas, it is a matter of letting others know about them, and having people that see your ideas as good and are willing to help with coding and time is nice.

anyway sorry for the chaotic post. my mind thinks faster than I can type. need a brain recorder like the old time movie.

flame away


Xanthrax
(stranger)
12/14/07 11:24 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

One thing I would like to see put back in is legends. That's just me though.

garin
(stranger)
12/14/07 11:40 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

I'm still all for the pwipe. I don't level crazy fast, usually much the opposite. I have two HM characters right now. One took me almost two years to get. I'm cool with taking that long again. Because most of the time I'm only playing twenty minutes here and there.

I also agree that unless there are major changes made first, then there shouldn't be a pwipe. A lot of people seem much more attached to characters they have put a lot less time into... but hey, whatever works. I'm just excited to see some change.


Azarepth
(stranger)
12/14/07 11:41 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

I don't like the idea of a pwipe. Pwipes are helpful when the following are true:

- Wholesale changes are about to be implemented, which dramatically change the way players gain power, wealth or equipment
- The changes have already been tested and balanced
- The period following the wipe will not contain additional sweeping changes

The list is a bit arbitrary, but I think it hits at least close to the mark. Recent discussions give me the feeling that we're entering a period of rapid change for Darke, rather than coming to the end of one. There will be adjustments to make and bugs to work out, and I think 'Should we pwipe?' is an issue we'll revisit several times as changes are implemented.

I actually think that the current pbase of low/mid/high level players is better suited to effective testing than one full of newbies with iron. A pwipe may well be necessary later on, but I don't think it's the best course of action now.


Minstrel
(journeyman)
12/14/07 11:59 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

I think two things:

*The crafter guild as was proposed (merging the enchanting and tinking professions into one guild cross-trainable by anyone) was an interesting and inventive idea (though, a bit similar to WOW-style professions...I like Darke being different) but it removes two guilds that I feel have tremendous identity and were almost emblematic of what made Darke different. Player-crafting would still be retained, but the idea of players dedicating themselves to making interesting things would be lost.

*If we don't do that form of crafter guild, a pwipe isn't necessary. A reset is needed if enchanters and tinkers disappear, but it isn't otherwise. People suicide and hiatus huge characters all the time. I and friends of mine have deleted some of the biggest. The game and player base turns over continuously, a pwipe isn't needed to combat stagnation.

I love the fact that we have active admin and wizards now. I like that they are thinking about changes and listening to the players. The above is just my view on the biggest issues facing the game.


carmy
(member)
12/14/07 02:34 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

In all honesty, I've wanted a pwipe for over 2 years. I cided a level 60 char, I've cided close to HM chars. Give me a break. You either like playing the game or you don't. If you don't like playing the game, then maybe propose some changes that will make it so that you will find the game interesting and entertaining at all levels of play.

If you do have suggestions, make them now while people are actively changing things. This game shouldn't be designed so that you only have fun over level 30 overall or whatever your arguments are. Sure, you've invested time to make a big char. Who cares? It will still be fun to play after the pwipe.

The pwipe is needed. Especially the way things are now. And, I'm not saying this because I don't have access to anything and I think things are unfair. It's true what Kim says, some guilds are making insane exp and leveling insanely fast without buffers, and that's completely unfair for some guilds that are limited to under 1 mil exp in an hour.


Azarepth
(stranger)
12/14/07 02:53 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

 Originally Posted By: carmy
The pwipe is needed. Especially the way things are now. And, I'm not saying this because I don't have access to anything and I think things are unfair. It's true what Kim says, some guilds are making insane exp and leveling insanely fast without buffers, and that's completely unfair for some guilds that are limited to under 1 mil exp in an hour.


In the long run, whatever imbalances exist now are going to get worked out as things get fixed up. If we pwipe now, chances are good that new changes will help -some guild- level quicker than others. If a pwipe is the solution now, will it be the solution then too?

Now don't get me wrong, I am not going to go cry in my beer if we wipe. I'm not all that high up, and I'll just start climbing the ladder again. I just don't see the point in leveling the playing field to fix injustices now, if we know that a system in flux is bound to create them all over again.


sabu
(journeyman)
12/14/07 04:49 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

I say we should pwipe now. What is the chance if there is a major change. How much of a pain in the ass would a reincarn be. If a other guild is made in the future a reincarn would need to be given anyways. So lets just get it over with.

Llygoden
(stranger)
12/14/07 07:15 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

I haven't voted because I would rather know if the proposed new "trade" system would be going in soon afterward. I enjoy tinking, but it would irk me somewhat to go through the motions again after a pwipe only to find that my tinker guild will be removed to be replaced with the trade system.

In short, I cannot make a decision until I know what's in store for crafting on Darke.


ShadowraithAdministrator
(member)
12/14/07 07:48 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

If tinker and enchanters were to be combined, it would be at the pwipe, not some time down the road. We might end up going with a totally seperate crafting system in addition to tinker and enchanter guild.

carmy
(member)
12/15/07 05:12 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

 Originally Posted By: Azarepth
In the long run, whatever imbalances exist now are going to get worked out as things get fixed up. If we pwipe now, chances are good that new changes will help -some guild- level quicker than others. If a pwipe is the solution now, will it be the solution then too?


No, a pwipe isn't the solution later on. Nobody would want to play if that were the case. There are many proposed changes at the moment, and some of them are impacting the game that a reinc, or a 1/2 reinc or any other options don't seem fair to me. I honestly don't see the problem here, as the people with the most to lose are the ones that are for it for the most part.

What needs to be considered, is that one admin, Nevin, showed up, and made some very serious changes very quickly, and never, at least from a player's perspective, followed through with any of his plans, and kind of left the MUD in some sort of limbo. Because the buffers were removed and some other silly changes, some players were able to level insanely fast. It doesn't seem fair, that because you picked a guild with insane leveling power, you should be able to progress to a point of power 10x more quickly than some other guilds.

I think a pwipe with some of the proposed changes will level the playing field. I'm not saying things are going to be perfect, if they were, we wouldn't need admin at all, now would we? :P


Siani
(stranger)
12/15/07 07:17 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

I agree with everything Carmy said! I am all for a pwipe since I don't really care so much to have huge chars but I think it only needs to happen if some big changes are put in. Pop in a few areas and figure out whats going to happen with the crafters guild...Or maybe fix moon mages...That would be fun...and then do a pwipe.

I just don't want the crafters guild to become the new monks so take your time coding it up and getting all the good ideas implemented!


Gabe
(stranger)
12/15/07 11:00 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

(Reposting this with some new content, since Shadowraith locked the original thread shortly after it was posted.)

I strongly object to a player wipe. It seems to me that any of these planned changes and expansions can be integrated into Darke mud without having to wipe out the current players.

I'd like to hear some solid reasoning for the *need* to erase other people's hard work in character development. Any person who feels like abandoning their own work and starting over when new changes go in has the same ability that they've always had: rebirth. Personally, i've spent over 3 years developing a character that i enjoy playing and continue to enjoy improving.

One of the advantages that Darke has reaped from extensive, competent coding work, and as a result of having a test server for working out kinks, is a stable foundation that allows for changes to be made without bringing the mud to its knees. Why ignore a huge advantage that having a test server brings? No instabilities will be introduced by merely expanding the current mud content, and allowing current players to continue playing, if everything is properly tested.

That said, i have no strong objection to an equipment and map wipe. I don't necessarily see a need for those, unless there's a concern on the part of admin that some objects exist on live that should not, and the availability of which will be culled.

So, again, why the *need* for a player wipe? High level players have put in a lot of time and effort to get there... i can say that holds true, at the very least, for my self, and i strongly object to watching the fruit of all that hard work just disappear.

The applicable reason i've heard so far is to make the dissolution of the tinker and enchanter guilds, and the creation of the new proposed crafter guild (a combination of the two former guilds), easier. If the new crafter guild actually did go in, it seems that chanter and tinker reincs into that guild be supervised such that former tinkers would have to train tinker skills within the new guild, and former enchanters would have to train enchanting skills within the new guild. Combat skills would be a moot point.

The mud is already on an even playing field, so arguments in that vein seem like falsely-rationalized or veiled desire to rip off people who have put the time in to get big.


Kim
(enthusiast)
12/15/07 11:21 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

"The mud is already on an even playing field, so arguments in that vein seem like falsely-rationalized or veiled desire to rip off people who have put the time in to get big."

Except it isn't even. The huge imbalances in XP ghain is the big reason for a Pwipe to me. *if* those were fixed (there are some easy solutions), I can't see there not being a pwipe. The unfairness of, say, Arii or Pyrax keeping their levels, which no-one could then theoretically catch is quite obvious.

I mean, unnless the XP solution included doubling or trippling the XP of certain guilds. But I see that as a silly solution. There is too much XP for most guilds already...


Gabe
(stranger)
12/15/07 11:32 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

Regarding the perceived problem with potential xp gain differential between guilds:

This is an issue that has been in existence ever since the CMS system was put in, some people have raised hell about it (myself included), and the existing mud admin chose to leave it as it was. That said, i doubt the issue is as big as some people have painted it to be. The only major imbalance that i recall offhand is the potential gain of players in the thief guild in the S category, and that imbalance has been corrected (?) from what i understand.

Other than that one, perhaps people who cite this differential as a reason should be specific, rather than merely saying that such a problem exists.

Overall, i think some effort does need to be put in to balancing potential xp gain amongst guilds, but that is a separate, longstanding issue, which is *not related* (read that again) to the changes which have been proposed of late.

Personally, i was happy to see the xp buffers go, even though my main character derived zero benefit from the removal (was already beyond their affect, being of high level already).


Kim
(enthusiast)
12/15/07 11:40 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

" The only major imbalance that i recall offhand is the potential gain of players in the thief guild in the S category, and that imbalance has been corrected (?) from what i understand."

For combat, the low end (non-haste guilds) is at maybe 1.5 million per hour. High end would be fighters and paladins who can get upwards of 10 million... And all otehr guilds in between at different ranges.

S and M are the same as far as this is concerned. The low end is at 1 million or so (tinker, fighter), the high end not counting thieves is over 2 million... 2.3-2.5 (necromancers, AMs, CLs). With all other guilds being someplace inbetween (enchanters at about 1.35 million, Paladins 1.7 or so).

"Personally, i was happy to see the xp buffers go, even though my main character derived zero benefit from the removal (was already beyond their affect, being of high level already)."

If the buffers went back in, with a static 1 million/hour, it would affect your main character and well, every character. This is a change that would quite require a pwipe.


Gabe
(stranger)
12/15/07 11:43 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

in reply to Kim's post: The only major issue (that i know of) was the one in the thief guild. I don't think there are even a lot of players who took advantage of it... though i know there were a few. Now that it's been corrected, i don't think it's that big an issue. Specifically, it's definitely not an issue the other players should have to pay the price for.

Arii has a big character, but she's also put in a *huge* amount of time getting there.

Why is the current xp rate available to the more well-off guilds a problem? I don't see a problem with having high level characters, beyond the mud-wide issue of not having content available to challenge those players, and it is possible to design content to challenge those players. I think that some is even in the works.


Gabe
(stranger)
12/15/07 11:46 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

The idea for a static cap in xp gain... what's the point? Do people want to limit how high a player can get? If so, why??

The only reason i see is lack of mud content, which is a creative issue.

If people want to get big, let them.


Kim
(enthusiast)
12/15/07 11:47 AM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

"Arii has a big character, but she's also put in a *huge* amount of time getting there."

So? Somebody in a less unbalanced guild putting in the same time would not get near her levels.

You argue well for what I say \:\)

"Why is the current xp rate available to the more well-off guilds a problem? I don't see a problem with having high level characters,"

You see.. this is a PK/looting mud. That's why there should be some balance. That some guilds get so far ahead so easily is a problem in that regard.


Kim
(enthusiast)
12/15/07 12:00 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

Oh yes... And about thieves being fixed... that just increases the cause for a pwipe, if true. Pyrax wouldn't have gained his S-levels if thieves truly have been fixed (and a few days ago, Garin said thieves still gain 3 million/hour. That's hardly fixed...).

Minstrel
(journeyman)
12/15/07 12:00 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

I am not currently for a pwipe. However, in support of what Kim is saying, IF there was a proper re-balancing of guilds, especially with respect to xp gain, I would see no alternative to a pwipe.

Assuming the crafter guild isn't done as originally proposed (folding in and replacing enchanters and tinkers), then there really hasn't been a change to warrant deleting everyone's characters. I'm not someone who clings desperately to characters...I've deleted Silk and Octavian. With no regrets. But I don't see the point to everyone losing characters they like *without reason*. Right now, there isn't reason, IMO.

I think a re-balancing of all the guilds at one time in a coherent way (thinking about the big picture with every change) is very necessary. Currently we have a system of fixes in isolation, which has created a somewhat haphazard collection of imbalances. The imbalances mitigate each other enough that the game is playable, but make certain aspects of the game quite unfair.

So, if that sort of big-picture re-balancing effort can be done, I'd be all for a pwipe. Without that, or other massive changes that completely change how players level, I don't think a pwipe accomplishes anything except a very short-term equalness among everyone (in an environment where equalness among individuals has never been the point or ideal).


Gabe
(stranger)
12/15/07 12:09 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

The xp differential is certainly an issue, but it's one that can be corrected, with some effort.

It's an issue that has been lingering for 7+ years, and even consciously and deliberately preserved by admin (I spoke with Madoc about it personally as an issue, and he said that's how he wanted it) and suddenly it's such a big deal that people want to use it as a lever to wipe everyone's progress?

The only 'solution' that's been posed as part of the upcoming changes is a static xp cap, and i think it's an exceptionally poor idea. Limiting people is not the way to go... equalizing potential xp gain, combined with the designing of content that can challenge high-level players, is a better direction. Granted, it would take more work, but the work would have a worthwhile reward, in that there wouldn't be a glass ceiling lingering for people who want to see how far they can really go.

As things stand, people in the middle level ranges are still subject to the same differentials (not a lot of correction has been made to equalize guilds from an xp-potential standpoint).


Kim
(enthusiast)
12/15/07 12:19 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

"equalizing potential xp gain, combined with the designing of content that can challenge high-level players, is a better direction. Granted, it would take more work, but the work would have a worthwhile reward, in that there wouldn't be a glass ceiling lingering for people who want to see how far they can really go."

We have different views here. I want higher levels to take some time, not just a week of hard playing to reach Highmortal.

Equalizing potential XP gain is fine, as long as the max possible is a LOT lower than it is.

And that would still require a pwipe. Unless you have no problem with suddenly having everybody reach level 50 in a few weeks or maybe a month. A mud of gods...


Gabe
(stranger)
12/15/07 12:23 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

 Originally Posted By: Kim
"Arii has a big character, but she's also put in a *huge* amount of time getting there."

So? Somebody in a less unbalanced guild putting in the same time would not get near her levels.

You argue well for what I say \:\)

"Why is the current xp rate available to the more well-off guilds a problem? I don't see a problem with having high level characters,"

You see.. this is a PK/looting mud. That's why there should be some balance. That some guilds get so far ahead so easily is a problem in that regard.


I have been in support of balancing guild xp from the beginning. If there's an argument there, i'm not involved. The statement that you made, for which i'd like to hear reasoning, is this one: "There is too much XP for most guilds already..."

I don't necessarily think it's true or untrue, but i am curious why you think it's a problem, and what you think should be done to correct it, if you can think of a solution besides the static xp cap.


sabu
(journeyman)
12/15/07 12:32 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

Here is a broad question about Exp. The Chaos ball spell at *6 can earn from arund 6k-36 exp per cast. You can get this spell around 6-9th level. Is this fair that a level 6-9 charecter can earn that much exp from 1 spell that is pretty cheap to get too *6 with.

Kim
(enthusiast)
12/15/07 12:33 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

Should the game just be about high levels? High levels, in my reasoning being 45+. As is, the levels until then are very fast, if you know what you are doing, they very much fly past, with no real sense of.... being there.

I think levels should start fast and then get slower and slower. As is, there is no real slowdown. You just keep going at much the same speed eternally. The mud is in risk of becoming top heavy, even with the high rebirth rate we have, just because attaining the higher levels again is so... easy. Since May or so, I have reached 50+ overall with.... *thinks* 4 characters... Enchanter, Paladin, Tinker and Fighter. I rebirthed two of them casually, because I knew that getting back to 50+ overall was no real challenge, just the question of a month or so at most. Even for somebody with a much lower play time than mine, it is very fast.

In short, I feel it's too quick and too easy.


Kim
(enthusiast)
12/15/07 12:37 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

Furthermore, I see buffers as a good solution. It encourages... doing things. You don't have to fight constantly, you get some respite to talk, or kill somebody or go castle looting while draining. \:\)

sabu
(journeyman)
12/15/07 12:38 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

So what would you suggest, up the exp needed to level or possibley instead of balanceing out the guilds exp rate. Change the amount needed for each guild. Instead of 1 static amount for everyone.

Kim
(enthusiast)
12/15/07 12:48 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

"So what would you suggest, up the exp needed to level or possibley instead of balanceing out the guilds exp rate. Change the amount needed for each guild. Instead of 1 static amount for everyone."

Buffers.... 500k big, with 20 minutes drain rate... 1.5 million XP/hour seems about right.
3 hours for level 20 to 21
16 hours for level 30 to 31
60 hours for level 40 to 41

400 hours or so from level 1 to 40 in one category. Just under 2 1/2 weeks online time.

*shrugs* Well, probably a bit slower since it takes a little while to reach 1.5 million/hour (some guilds never do). but seems about the right speed to me.


Gabe
(stranger)
12/15/07 12:58 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

People already have the option of doing things besides xping. Nobody is forced to xp (using xp as a verb here). It sounds like you're in favor of forcing people to not xp, via the agency of the limiting buffer. At this time, i'm not in favor of limiting options.

In regard to the main point above, i'm hearing that, in short, you don't want people to be able to level as fast as they are able to right now. I don't see high levels as a problem... levels are more-or-less relative anyway, but *if* that opinion is shared by administration, there seems to be a simple solution to slow down levelling while making minimal changes within the game: simply double or triple the base xp required to level. Existing characters get a same-race, same-guild reincarn, and wind up at a lower level. That is... if high levels are really seen as a problem. I don't see them as a problem beyond lack of challenging content, as i said before.


sabu
(journeyman)
12/15/07 12:59 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

I would rather see the exp tables changed per guild. Or maybe certain guilds would get a negative modifier. As an example, a fighter killing stuff or a tinker forgeing/runeing stuff is based off of the skill %. It takes a lot more levels to perfect any skill the thief,fighter, or tinker guild has.

Where as almost every 5% skill in any magic skill..magery,enchantement, and so forth gives you more power and costs a lot less to get it from *1 to *6 and you get damn good exp for the spells.

This would be a good reason to have either multiple exp charts or exp mod per class.


Kim
(enthusiast)
12/15/07 01:06 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

"People already have the option of doing things besides xping. Nobody is forced to xp (using xp as a verb here)."

I never said so, did I?

" I don't see high levels as a problem... levels are more-or-less relative anyway, but *if* that opinion is shared by administration, there seems to be a simple solution to slow down levelling while making minimal changes within the game: simply double or triple the base xp required to level. "

Way to completely ignore the MAIN point of some guilds gaining tripple the XP of others, or double.

And that you want levels to be fast and easy is your view. I can't honestly say I respect it, but then again, I do want a bit of a challenge... Not just, create char and be highmortal in a week or two.

"I would rather see the exp tables changed per guild. Or maybe certain guilds would get a negative modifier."

Yes, that would work to balance out XP, I guess.

Of course, that would also quite need a pwipe, unless the option was to make fighter or paladin combat XP the baseline.


sabu
(journeyman)
12/15/07 01:09 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

I am for a pwipe, and all I have been hearing on the forums is the classes need balanceing and so on and so forth and it would take soo much work to do. I think if you changed the experience needed per guild to level this would solve most of the problems.

Llygoden
(stranger)
12/15/07 01:24 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

 Originally Posted By: Shadowraith
If tinker and enchanters were to be combined, it would be at the pwipe, not some time down the road. We might end up going with a totally seperate crafting system in addition to tinker and enchanter guild.


In that case, I don't have any significant opposition to a pwipe, especially if there are changes that may change the the low level experience.


ShadowraithAdministrator
(member)
12/15/07 02:27 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

One thing to remember folks. We love this mud too.

You can say this is all Shadowraith's doing, but it really isn't. I was refraining from even suggesting it till some playes thought it might be ok. Then some Admins got behind it.

In the meantime we have had some wizards coming out of the woodwork.

But in the end, I will go with whatever Mac feels is best to make the mud a more fun place to be around. The man has put YEARS of sweat and blood into maintaining this place, from the first when he saved it till now.

A Pwipe, with a look at balance of xp and xp gain rates would give us a lot of opportunities. If you think that everyone will just be high level again in no time, then we did something wrong.

Still, this poll and this thread is providing some incredible feedback, please keep it going.


CerberusAdministrator
(addict)
12/15/07 03:36 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

Since we've gotten into a lot of back and forth about a very few number of ideas, I'm going to try and succinctly state what the arguments for and against a pwipe thus far have been.

Everyone seems to be in agreement with this statement:
Pwipe requires a lot of change to be justified.

Some things that have been stated as justifications warranting a pwipe include:
  • xp rates unified
  • crafter guild implemented
  • enchanter/tinker guild changed/removed
  • buffer return
The implication here is that if the way players interact with the system in terms of experience gain is significantly altered there should be a reset of players in order to establish a baseline for all players to begin experience gain again. By this reasoning, a baseline is only important once it has been established that there is an accepted system of advancement from baseline to any given point.

The arguments against a pwipe include that those who play enough to advance in an untimely fashion will advance faster than others anyway, returning Darke to the unhappy-but-familiar state of equilibrium it currently inhabits. This reasoning begs the question "What is an acceptable rate of ascent?" The administration needs player input on this topic to make any reasonable estimate, as it is the players who spend the most time playing the game.

To all of those who are against a pwipe currently: Would you be amicable to a pwipe AFTER a new rate of xp advancement has been established AND tested AND implemented along with any other major changes, just so they can be experienced for a while? Or is there something intrisically flawed about resetting the playing field period?

If there is something that leaves a bad taste in your mouth about the word pwipe alone, regardless of circumstances, what is that something? Is it that time and effort will be lost, or that players who have leveled in obsolete systems are so few that they make no difference to the playerbase on the whole, or that drastic change isn't what's needed if we have a steady influx of newness? Or something else entirely?

This topic is extremely helpful to us as we work toward making Darke a better place - thank you all for keeping the fires burning.


Minstrel
(journeyman)
12/15/07 04:08 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below


Nice summation, Harold.

 Originally Posted By: Harold
To all of those who are against a pwipe currently: Would you be amicable to a pwipe AFTER a new rate of xp advancement has been established AND tested AND implemented along with any other major changes, just so they can be experienced for a while?


This is my position exactly. If a proper overhaul of guild balance is done, please, pwipe away and let's begin the healing.

But short of that, and short of current guilds being deprecated, I don't think there's a compelling reason for a pwipe. A pwipe IS a drastic step, I think. Even though I've cided large characters, it was by choice. Deleting the work of others forcibly can be necessary but should be regarded as a last resort, not a first resort for the sake of "shaking things up."

Right now, I don't think there's anything that warrants a pwipe. Enchanters/tinkers being removed and replaced (not an idea I favour, but that's a different topic) or xp rates changed on a large scale would be compelling, but right now at least, neither seems hugely likely.


carmy
(member)
12/15/07 06:51 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

As it is, this MUD isn't really designed from a player's standpoint to be a high-end game in the least, but at the same time, there is no content for players that aren't high-end... Does that even make sense, it doesn't make sense as I say it, but it seems to be the reality. It seems like, if you're not HM, there's very little you can do, if you are HM, you run out of things to do other than level some more. I sincerely feel that if there is a limit to exp gain, that in some way would equalize guilds, but the time input by players was awarded with equal gain in the end would be a great change. But, if we're doing this, one must realize that there needs to be some mid level content other than hack and slash.

Ganelon
(journeyman)
12/15/07 09:11 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

Even with changes to XP rate it should be possible to recalculate XP of existing players based on the proposed rate and their time online.

CerberusAdministrator
(addict)
12/16/07 01:36 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

 Originally Posted By: Ganelon
Even with changes to XP rate it should be possible to recalculate XP of existing players based on the proposed rate and their time online.
So instead of leveling the playing field for all, rebalance existing characters. So if you've gained experience at a rate that is untenable in the newly controlled, buffered system, you are simply relieved of that excessive xp because you haven't spent enough time idling online since you gained all that xp.

While the idea is definitely possible, and it's admirable to want to keep the efforts of those who leveled in a perfectly natural way intact, I don't think it's advisable to hamstring some players when there exists a multitude of good reasons to reset the entire base. With nothing even close to agreed upon (beyond the nebulous "change comes") on the administrative side, it's hard to list the reasons that would make a pwipe the best option, but next I will try to address this concern:
 Originally Posted By: Gabe
(sic)
I strongly object to a player wipe. It seems to me that any of these planned changes and expansions can be integrated into Darke mud without having to wipe out the current players.
Anything can be integrated without wiping out progress of current players. The caveat of course is whether there's a question of fairness to be answered to the players. Is it fair to arbitrarily remove the work of (in the case of some players) years? No. Is it fair to determine that enough new content is in place to make compairisons between old and new players questionable? I don't have an easy answer for this. My gut says yes, there is a point where compairisons become weak, and it is less desirable to integrate than to reset. I imagine we'd need quite a bit of data collection to occur to mathematically support my gut, but that it could be done. Area modificiation/addition/subtrations alone won't do it, even though it adds a level of uncertainty in comparison that I believe is worth reviewing - for instance, if I spent all my time in area A and the xp gained in area A is lowered, while you spend all your time in area B and the xp gained in area B is increased, should there be a reinc for both of us to reflect the potential xp gained? What about the person who just started in area C which reflects the new values of area A + B? Does the fact that they gain xp at a rate different than could've been gained before the changes to areas (only) even out the differences between you and I in some way that means there's no value in giving this question further thought?

 Originally Posted By: Gabe
I'd like to hear some solid reasoning for the *need* to erase other people's hard work in character development. Any person who feels like abandoning their own work and starting over when new changes go in has the same ability that they've always had: rebirth. Personally, i've spent over 3 years developing a character that i enjoy playing and continue to enjoy improving.
First off, is there anyone who can with certainty say that they would no longer enjoy making and improving any character simply because their current character was removed? I happen to think that Darke is a series of minor goals that aggregate into a majorly fun character. If you don't see a disparity
 Originally Posted By: Gabe
that has been in existence ever since the CMS system was put in
as a problem, what qualifies as a problem? Is there a statute of limitations on problems, such that eight or ten years later fixing this problem means that people who have gained under the problem should be grandfathered in to the new system? In the same post that the above quote is from, the claim is made that xp balance among guilds is not related to the changes that have been presented of late. I find it wholly discouraging that the view exists out there that relative xp gain among guilds is not related to a pwipe. I believe the argument in favor of a pwipe would in fact be an overhaul of the xp gaining system, and that all the buzzworthy new Trades/Crafter guild and the like would be installed in additon to a newly minted xp gaining system.

 Originally Posted By: Gabe
No instabilities will be introduced by merely expanding the current mud content, and allowing current players to continue playing, if everything is properly tested.
There is no reason why new areas wouldn't go in as they were finished, or new content added with gusto as it became available. There is an intrinsic instability to changing the way xp is gained, and allowing folk who have gained xp either too quickly or too slowly in terms of the new system to stick around. If they've gained xp too slowly should they be retroactively gifted with xp they neither earned nor would have been guaranteed to have earned by their age online? (How much of that age was spent idle? How much at maximum xp gain? How often did they have the capacity to gain xp at the maximum rate? Were they frequently without equipment or in deathcheck?) If they've gained it too quickly should an announcement be made so they can idle 24 hours a day until the changes, so they can legally keep the xp gained? Should they have some of it forcibly removed without notice so as to keep in line with the system they've never experienced? The idea that no instabilities exist by adding new content is a great one, but it vastly misidentifies new systems that replace old as new content. A strong argument that adding new things in the form of areas, skills, items, spells, or any sort of superficial content does not impose instability. I happen to agree entirely, assuming those items are properly tested and reviewed. But a new system for crafting items is a change in the way content is interfaced with, not new content. New formulas for experience gain are a change in the way content is approached, not new content.

 Originally Posted By: Gabe
So, again, why the *need* for a player wipe? High level players have put in a lot of time and effort to get there... i can say that holds true, at the very least, for my self, and i strongly object to watching the fruit of all that hard work just disappear.
This argument is operating with the underlying principal that a player wipe is needed, and we should be justifying that need with enough changes to make one irrefutably inevitable. I pose a rebuttal question here: "What is the point at which enough change has occured in which to make a player wipe the only viable option?" While it's true that player wipes are the most drastic step a mud can take in order to get itself on solid footing, there are obviously alternatives - a great many of the good ones have been posted in this topic, no less - but there does come a point when it's the only step available. If the changes that have been churning on these boards aren't enough to warrant it, what would be? I personally feel that an experience gain overhaul is enough to warrant it, simply because there is not a convincing enough route by which to port old system xp gain into a new system's formulas without pouring over years of logs for each individual. Is there some other standard that we should set, and then check if we meet, rather than setting the bar as a pwipe and adding new changes until we reach that bar?

 Originally Posted By: Gabe
The applicable reason i've heard so far is to make the dissolution of the tinker and enchanter guilds, and the creation of the new proposed crafter guild (a combination of the two former guilds), easier. If the new crafter guild actually did go in, it seems that chanter and tinker reincs into that guild be supervised such that former tinkers would have to train tinker skills within the new guild, and former enchanters would have to train enchanting skills within the new guild. Combat skills would be a moot point.
Again, the ease with which the trade guild could go in is a byproduct of a pwipe, not the impetus for one. If there were reincs instead, why would one who leveled as a tinker be required to train tinker abilities and one who leveled as an enchanter be required to train enchanter abilities? That would presume them to be of the old system, whereas the new system would likely guide them into either dealing with weapons alone or armour alone. Shouldn't they be guided into whichever they were closest to before the change? Why would they be really, since they are in an entirely different position at this point, being that they can choose either weapons or armour which they never had to choose before, and what if they'd previously trained mostly weapon runes, but no forge weapon and only forge armour, and they tended to use the weapon runes more than armour but billed themselves as an armour maker?
 Originally Posted By: Ganelon
Even with changes to XP rate it should be possible to recalculate XP of existing players based on the proposed rate and their time online.
All these foolish scenarios I have until this point listed do have reasonable answers but the number of possible scenarios are many, and the answers that cover all possibilites are few and unsatisfactory.

 Originally Posted By: Gabe
The mud is already on an even playing field, so arguments in that vein seem like falsely-rationalized or veiled desire to rip off people who have put the time in to get big.
I'd like to know where this view comes from. All I've read in the forums seems to point to quite the opposite - just for a top-of-the-head list (sorry about lacking references) paladins and MA users gaining 10 times the combat xp possible in all other guilds, Arch-mages and Necromancers gaining twice the magic xp possible in most, Monks being incapable of training all of their semi-caster-guild skills and spells well into highmortal, some higher level players being for all intents and purposes impossible to match in terms of levels because of past changes to xp gain rates. None of this screams "even playing field" to me. It smacks largely of status quo, which is quite different in my mind. If the meaning here was that the mud is stable in its unequal footing for a great many years, and stability is the equivalent of even footing since everyone knows that the differences are there, the statement is flawed. If the meaning here is that everyone has the same opportunity to join any guild, and so people who choose a guild at a disadvantage do so knowingly and can switch guilds, the statement is undercutting the worth of real options. If, as I feel, the statement is made as a closing argument based on what had been established before - that pwipe is not the only alternative, and others should be explored - I would like very much to hear at what point a pwipe is the only viable option. That way the admin can (at the next meeting) establish what changes are going to be made over the next year and test those changes against the level established by our players as needed to justify a pwipe, rather than trying to justify a pwipe by adding new changes until we meet that minimum standard.


carmy
(member)
12/16/07 04:00 PM
Re: Pwipe Vote: Please vote on the options below

I think the point at which people would want a pwipe, and why most people seem to want one, is that changes seem to be in the works to limit exp gain.

It isn't fair that say fighters before could make crazy combat exp in an old system, they get to keep their chars, and new fighters be limited by whatever system be put into place.

If there is a major difference in the exp that one person in a guild could achieve at one point compared to a new person in a guild, that in my opinion warrants a pwipe. Because as was previously stated about 50 times, it would be nearly impossible to reach the character who leveled in the old system.

No, adding areas isn't a factor in a pwipe, it's something that I think we need as a whole if we do pwipe, but just because you're adding areas doesn't mean that we need a pwipe. Just like we don't need a pwipe if a new guild is added, unless you're going to be reincing tinkers and chanters (so what, 1\2 the MUD) into this new guild which seems to be based on a completely new system.

Yes, I'm for a pwipe, call me biased, but if we don't need one, then don't do it. A pwipe is warranted when new characters don't have the same advantages as old characters, that's my view. Major EXP changes would then meet that criterion.