Shadowraith
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| (member) |
| 12/05/07 07:19 AM |
Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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Ok...
First up, this is nothing more than thinking out loud. Gathering thoughts and feelings of those who currently play. So do not think this is coming or dread it or eagerly anticipate it. It is merely us having a nice discussion about a possibility.
That being said, there is a poll attached to this message, so please vote about how you feel about this as a whole.
So...
One of the main problems with any online game (graphical or mud) where there are classes is the forever rallying cry, "They are stronger than me, nerf them". Balance becomes a nightmare and everyone always gets that "grass is greener" symptom sooner or later. It's even worse in a world like Darke where each person is only allowed one character.
So what do we think if Darke became a classless world?
There would have to be things worked out of course, but some of the pro's and con's are:
PROS
1. You can choose to be what you want to be. A mage can swing a sword if he wants, and do it really well. Just takes time and dev investment.
2. Balance becomes MUCH easier, because modifying a skill or spell balances it for everyone at once.
3. You can allow for "respecs", at some penalty of course, where you can restart your life or redo your skills without having to start over or go on haitus.
4. Similiar skills can be easier to learn, making people who choose to focus on magic better at it than those who want to be a jack of all trades. Of course the Jack, with enough time and effort, can become just as good, just would take longer.
CONS
1. Some people like having their class laid out for them.
2. Everyone would reset. Noone wants a PWipe, which would be ideal, so there would need to be a conversion process.
3. Some people will try to min/max the system, but with balance easier, might be easier to make more skills/spells valid.
It was the Summon spell debate that got me thinking about this. If everyone had access to it, its problematic nature drops sharply.
Anyway, give me your thoughts. Lets have a nice discussion. And don't panic
This is just us thinking of ways of livening up the mud and getting a bigger player base for all to have fun with. We have a great foundation and we can do a lot of things with it.SW
| sabu |
| (journeyman) |
| 12/05/07 07:39 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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I think this would be good for a start. Then people would start bitching about this or that and then it would probably end back to where it was. There have been multiple changes to this place where it was good for 2-3 monthes and then dropped back to the way it was.
| Charon |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/05/07 07:42 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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I personally think that it would be an interesting experiment and pretty easy to test out.
I'm not 100% sure but I imagine it could be as simple as:
1. Start up a second copy of darke (much like war)
2. Set all guilds to 100/100/100 devs, or 75/75/75 or whatever.
3. Remove the check from the guild train rooms that checks what guild you are.
The only problem is that some guilds would overlap a lot and some skills (magery!) would become essential to every player.
I don't think I'd want to see that happen to live though. A conversion would be very tricky and a pwipe usually doesn't collect new players.
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Shadowraith
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| (member) |
| 12/05/07 08:12 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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Well,
We wouldnt pwipe persay. I don't think anyone wants that. More a conversion of old point to equivelent level new points
Your suggestion to test it would be the easiest way. But there are balance checks and such that would have to happen as well. Plus the whole multiplier part so that your cost changes based on what you already know. (so studying a single branch remains easier than multiple branches)
Also the question comes up is it just one pool of devs? Or do you keep seperate CMS
| sabu |
| (journeyman) |
| 12/05/07 08:18 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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I find it kind of funny, if there was going to be a big change like this and no pwipe done. I could see a lot of old players that have huge charecters to hiatus and then build a charecter to test crap out first. I almost think it would be a bad thing not to pwipe due to the fact their would be a lot of older players here that would just create the uber charecter and rule the mud.
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Shadowraith
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| (member) |
| 12/05/07 08:22 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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That's a valid concern sabu, but also valid is the players who have stuck around since the last pwipe not wanting to lose all their work and effort.
| Kim |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/05/07 08:34 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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"We wouldnt pwipe persay. I don't think anyone wants that. More a conversion of old point to equivelent level new points"
I wouldn't mind a pwipe, and I would think it necessary. Currently guilds are very unbalanced when it comes to gaining levels, so a conversion would be inherently unfair.
Then again, I have rebirthed more highmortals than the rest of the mud combined
| sabu |
| (journeyman) |
| 12/05/07 08:46 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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I am just not sure about a change like this. Being that the tinkers just got a major revamp, and now there is talks of doing this. I just don't like it. I still think there are too many other issues to deal with than this.
Need more mob areas to kill crap. killing sailors,marines and watchman over and over again is insanity.I know there are other areas out there, but they are almost a waste of time to get too. Escpecially if you die.
| Kim |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/05/07 08:53 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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Oh, and furthermore... I like the basis of Darke as is.. That change would be essentially making a completely new mud (again). I would much prefer it if it was a separate server.
One drawback is the number of "must train" spells. If somebody didn't train iron will or indomitable spirit, they wouldn't be competitive at all.
| sabu |
| (journeyman) |
| 12/05/07 09:00 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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I guess the other thing is, you would almost have to throw out CMS due to the fact that per say a tinker would only have level 6 worth of devs to train with for magic. I know it would be the same for the magic guilds and such. The the fighter, thief and tinker guilds would almost be handcuffed in a CMS environment. More so then the magic useing guilds due to the fact that there isn't really any powerful or over the top skills that the special tree gives. And they wouldn't have a pool of magic devs to start with.
| Charon |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/05/07 10:21 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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Originally Posted By: Kim
Currently guilds are very unbalanced when it comes to gaining levels, so a conversion would be inherently unfair.
That is soooooo true.
Originally Posted By: Kim
Oh, and furthermore... I like the basis of Darke as is.. That change would be essentially making a completely new mud (again). I would much prefer it if it was a separate server.
You hit the nail right on the head Kim. It would basically be a new game. Not necessarily a bad game, I would certainly give it a shot.
Originally Posted By: Shadowraith
Also the question comes up is it just one pool of devs? Or do you keep seperate CMS
I wouldn't suggest a big pool of devs. That seems like a step backwards to me. Perhaps allow people to train at any guild, but to have a set number of devs. For example say 250% devs.. so you could to 100% magic, 50% combat, 50% spec.
Or 125/150/75 or something. But I'd also suggest putting in a cap maybe at 150 and 50.
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Cerberus
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| (addict) |
| 12/05/07 12:02 PM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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In voting for mild dislike of this idea, my main reasoning was Kim's point:
Originally Posted By: Kim
That change would be essentially making a completely new mud
There are some things that make Darke, well... Darke. Guilds are one of them in my opinion. I don't think a guild system would necessacerily need to be scrapped to keep the idea of cross-the-board balance alive though. All guilds do draw from the same pool of skills and spells, but some have access to abilities others don't. What might need to happen is a valuation system for individual skills, and then a limit on the value of what each guild is allowed to have.
Just to put in place a value system would be a massive undertaking, obviously, but the framework would then be forever available when considering additions, subtractions, and changes. If an effect that moves a player adds X value to a guild that scales by a factor of Y for every step away from level Z, adds M value for every factor that makes it easier to accomplish, subtracts N for every factor that makes it harder to accomplish, and ... well, you get the idea. Essentially it would be huge in terms of man hours just to categorize, then obscene to accurately rank, and just plain silly to think would ever occur.
I'm something of an optimist though.
| Charon |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/05/07 12:54 PM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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Crosstraining is dangerous.
I think if it were to be done at all.. it would have to be something like 1% in a crossclass skill per overall level or something like that or trade that in every 10 levels for *1 of a crossclass spell (but never higher than say *2).
Even then it opens up the possibility of some combinations being much more broken than others. For example AMs and SMs could train iron will, but an elementalist wouldn't be able to train spells in any other guilds due to not sharing any casting skills.
It would be very tricky to say the least.
It might be kindof neat if people could train others in their clan for an obscene cost. Say you could teach 1% of a skill for each 20% of a skill that you had and it cost the recipient 5x the normal dev cost.
Even that though would benefit some more than others so it would still be really hard to do.
Actually the more I think about it, the worst it seems.
Might be better if you wanted to do crosstraining if you just let people pick 2 guilds, average the devs they would get for each and let them train both. A fighter elementalist might be interesting.
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Shadowraith
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| (member) |
| 12/05/07 01:26 PM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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This wasnt about cross training at all.
Classless system, means you pick and choose as you go.
| Charon |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/05/07 01:30 PM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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I like the idea of the boards. It lets people discuss things in a pretty civilized manner.
And it seems, as a general rule so far, that people have been pretty civilized... unlike some other boards that just turn into flame wars.
In any case to stay on topic, I was trying to suggest a middle ground for the classless system and our current system.
| Charon |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/05/07 01:31 PM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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Oh I voted mild dislike. Not that I think the idea is bad, but I like darke how it is. I would welcome the chance to play a classless copy however, provided that it didn't replace the current.
| carmy |
| (member) |
| 12/05/07 04:15 PM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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Originally Posted By: Drey
Oh I voted mild dislike. Not that I think the idea is bad, but I like darke how it is. I would welcome the chance to play a classless copy however.
I agree entirely with Drey. Though, I do like the ideas of guilds. I think it promotes inter-guild interactions. If a char is a do-it-yourselfer, it may limit interactions between characters.
That having been said, a huge change like this is the kind of thing where we get a surge in the people who are playing, and if they dislike it at all, the pbase drops again by a couple people. I wouldn't want to see that happen either.
| sabu |
| (journeyman) |
| 12/06/07 06:12 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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My other question would be, where would bountys fall too. Whould it be a certain skill/spell that would trigger being able to read them or would everybody have access to them?
| Charon |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/06/07 06:14 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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I would think it wouldn't exist, since there would be no assassins.
| sabu |
| (journeyman) |
| 12/06/07 06:17 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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Shrugs, cannot anyone be an assassian? The only difference in a NB pk and anyone else is they earn money from it. Now i am only talking about the pk side and not skills/spells.
| Charon |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/06/07 06:22 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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Oh anybody can pk I would imagine in a classless mud, but there wouldn't be any specific "assassins".
So I imagine that the bounties would be claimed either by everybody, or by nobody. I see assassins as being specialized so I'd go with the nobody, but I suppose it could be either way.
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Shadowraith
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| (member) |
| 12/06/07 07:48 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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You could still have guilds of like minded people, maybe clans would replace the standard guild, shrug. Its not looking like a popular idea though, so think its goint to wither here at the initial discussion stage
| Charon |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/06/07 08:10 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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I don't know SW.
I wouldn't say it isn't popular, I would just say it isn't popular as a replacement.
| Charon |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/06/07 08:13 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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Ok apparently I can't start a poll. But perhaps a poll with:
If a classless darke were set up in addition to the existing I would:
- certainly play
- likely play
- undecided
- unlikly to play
- will not play
I would certainly give it a go.
| **DONOTDELETE** |
| () |
| 12/06/07 08:38 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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I agree with Drey. I would definitely try out the new version but I would not stop playing the original one, at least not for a while. However, with 2 verisons available simultaneously, there is a chance of further splitting the playyer base which is not that large to begin with.
| sabu |
| (journeyman) |
| 12/06/07 08:44 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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Isn't that what happened when DBR opened up?
| Charon |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/06/07 09:03 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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I think if another copy started up it would bring a whole bunch of people out of the shadows actually. Might even help the pbase, at least temporarily.
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Cerberus
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| (addict) |
| 12/06/07 11:50 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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I'd say it's unpopular. Only one person of nine voters has more than a mild dislike for it, but that may be because of how it was framed, as Drey indicated. I agree that if it were a new mud with a Darke background I would try it out, but if Darke were replaced with it, I would be disappointed to say the least.
I just want to echo two sentiments that have been stated by Ganelon and Drey, respectively: The player base would likely be split, and we'd probably see old faces and new for a short while. I don't think that the influx of new would cement either player base though. I am curious about the multi-classing thought though. While I'm sure there are issues inherant to not wanting to have more than one guild allowable it may be worth another poll to find out if players would be interested in seeing at least an outline of how it could potentially be done...
| Charon |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/06/07 12:12 PM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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I would be interested in a potential multi-classing setup. Perhaps a 2 guild mix. It could be very interesting.
| sabu |
| (journeyman) |
| 12/06/07 01:37 PM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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IS there a reason as it stands right now, that we cannot use all 3 slots for CMS. I know guilds aren't setup that way. But like staed, you could pick 1 guild to learn from?
| Charon |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/07/07 10:00 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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There isn't a coding limitation, it's just limited by guild choice really (and some coding to stop non-guild skills from giving xp).
I don't imagine it would be difficult to work around that though. The reason is though that the way the guilds WERE set up is that they almost naturally fell into those 3 categories.
| sabu |
| (journeyman) |
| 12/07/07 10:47 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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I think it would be interesting if per say all 3 could be used. when you are created or for the already existed players you would get a token. Take said token to a shop or what not. You would then have the option of picking one other guild that used the CMS you weren't useing. Set it at like 50 for dev ratio or whatever the number means and you can then go to said guild and train. You would only be able to train skills in that catagory also. So me being a tinker could pick lets say enchanter and slowly learn the skills and spells of the enchanter guild. Will i ever get powerful over it, prolly not. Since the dev gain would be so minimal that it would take a few years to even get very far.
| Charon |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/07/07 11:19 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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Not a bad idea.. but not so easily balanced. People currently in M guilds would have a much less choice as almost nobody would pick fighter (unless they really wanted balance weapon).
What I imagine most people would do is take thief for a couple of reasons. 1. They can pick locks. 2. They can level pretty quickly even with only 50% devs.
Almost every chanter and AM could be a one stop looting machine.
| Charon |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/07/07 11:21 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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To follow up my negative post, I have a suggestion.
What if select skills only were allowed. Say some of the lower level tinker runes, herbal lore, poison lore, but not pick locks or something like that.
Perhaps have a lower cap on said skills. For the magic guilds perhaps only allow people to train spells to *4 and no spells over level 15 or something like that.
This would allow for some variations but would keep anybody from ever replacing another guild.
| Kim |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/07/07 11:46 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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Hum... What about something like... related, non-related and opposite guilds...
First though, you could only train spells and skills lower than.. level 6 or so. I don't think I'd ever want to see an AM with ithian, oblivion or iron will.
For say AM, related guilds would be... enchanter and elementalist. Training in these guilds would cost 2x. And you would need to be level 25 or so before you could train anything in those guilds. Spells would be limited to *4 or so, skills to 50%.
Neutral guilds would cost 4x, and need higher level, say 35 before you could train. Spells limited to *2, and skills to 25%
Opposite guilds which for AMs would be fighter and thief I guess, which you can't train in at all.
This is very basic and with lots and lots of problems. For example, for enchanters AMs would be a related guild. But AMs have some very unbalanced low level spells, like Point Defense (level 2!), which... would be very nice for enchanters and elementalists to have, to the point where you would be insane not to train it.
Another obvious problem is the point where guilds have nothing more to train. A paladin needs level 36 magic or so to reach the point where they have every spell in the guild at *6. So they could just focus on crosstraining from there. Enchantenters aren't even finished at level 45 magic, really, and get considerably less XP.
So... lots of balance issues to resolve before even thinking of this.
This is just vague ideas keep in mind
| Gabe |
| (stranger) |
| 12/07/07 03:47 PM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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If you want to liven up the mud, one major thing that we are lacking is new creative content.
Do you have the time and interest to totally overhaul (and probably homogenize) a mud that is reasonably balanced according to specific guild abilities and limitations?
| sabu |
| (journeyman) |
| 12/07/07 06:23 PM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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As far as kims post, i would be against that. I would like to think that the purpose in using all 3 skills is to add a little diversity. I wouldn't really want cross training between magic classes.
I can understand that in the grand scheme of my last post you could get a token and pick a guild based on whatever CMS you weren't using. The argument against that is no one would want to be fighters becasue all they give is balance. I wouldn't think any of the magic classes would want to pick fighters since tinkers get balance also and would seem odd.
My goal of the post was given that you earn 50% devs for each level any class be it thief or tinker for special or any magic class for someone that is tinker,fighter or thief wouldn't ever really get huge in that area.
Someone made the comment that most would pick rogues and be a 1 man looting maching. It would be possible. But given that they would have to spend all of their devs to train either pick pockets and or steal to get to picklocks/ and whatever the prereq is for that skill is it would take to like prolly 20th level to even get to 50% pick lock. I didn't even try the math so if i am wrong i am wrong.
But anyways, the same would go for the magic class. Not sure what anyone would pick as a favorite. But i am sure it would be diverse. Lets just say they chose enchanter. Starting out they could prolly get to like 25-30% enchantment and then *5 exploding rune. It would take forever to level enchantment up to get another spell worth training and then train it up so that it gave good exp.
And if you wanted to put a limit on when you could start it, you say once the charecter is hiatusable. Some people get burnt out once they get to 30th over all and need a break and pick a different charecter to begin with. Maybe more people would stick with that charecter because they now can train into another side of CMS.
Just my thoughts.
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Shadowraith
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| (member) |
| 12/08/07 06:17 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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Nice discussion, keep going. Flesh it out if you want together.
| Charon |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/08/07 08:13 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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Originally Posted By: Sabu
Someone made the comment that most would pick rogues and be a 1 man looting maching. It would be possible. But given that they would have to spend all of their devs to train either pick pockets and or steal to get to picklocks/ and whatever the prereq is for that skill is it would take to like prolly 20th level to even get to 50% pick lock. I didn't even try the math so if i am wrong i am wrong.
Terribly terribly wrong. First of all, 50% pick locks can open just about anything.
Next even with half devs you could probably do it pretty easily.
Next, with 100% devs as a normal thief, around 15s you can get over 1 million xp per hour and still be able to open almost any lock (maybe mines you couldn't at that stage).
If you only cared about looting and not about leveling you could probably do it with 50% devs around the same level, just not bother training as much xp skills.
| Charon |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/08/07 08:14 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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I still think some spells/skills should be limited. A non-chanter, regardless of level shouldn't be able to cast trues for example.
That's just me though.
| sabu |
| (journeyman) |
| 12/08/07 08:34 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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I can agree with that, so then the question would be is what skills/spells should be open and if they were all open at what cap?
| carmy |
| (member) |
| 12/08/07 05:27 PM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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I'm surprised nobody mentioned cross training as a paladin or cleric... I mean, a fighter with boa, cds, and divine trans is pretty damn sick. A fighter with point defense, sick. A fighter with AOF, HA, maybe even a low level critback spell like holy aura from the WP guild topped off with their point defense spell, really sick. I think it would be silly to allow crosstraining in the first place, if you're just going to block all the fun spells anyway. What's the point of making an AM if they can't haste, get point defense, make portals etc? Cast light and faerie fire?
| Charon |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/08/07 09:34 PM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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What I'd limit for AMs would be sorcery, AEs.. that's about it.
Possibly perming familiars.
| Kim |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/10/07 08:55 AM |
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How about this... Instead of crosstraining, why not a free-for-all adventurers guild It would have all the skills and spells you can cross train? Something like, like.... level * 3-5 trainings.... That way it'd be easy to regulate that no silly powerful spells/skills that need to be guild unique gets crosstrained, and it could add a nice deal of variety. It'd be even more fun if there was a casting skill and a few simple spells for each god. (of the gods that don't already have a guild of their own).
Something like that... Idea not fleshed out very fully.
| Charon |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/10/07 09:08 AM |
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That could be an interesting idea. Leave existing characters as they are, and have a new non-guild introduced.
There would have to be some sort of control implemented. I don't know if I would go with the set number of trainings per level.. that seems like a step backwards, but perhaps have a cap on what they can train. I'd give them less devs (since they can train all 3 categories) and maybe limit training somehow..
Off the top of my head I can think of a few ways to limit training:
1. Only allow a max of 100% in a non-combat skill (to limit spells and skills alike).
2. Spells can only be trained to *4.
3. A negative "training bonus" to make skills slightly more expensive (although that's basically a dev control).
4. Each casting skill beyond the first you train has an additional cost. (for example if you start with 'necromancy' it would cost what it normally would, but if you then started training 'prayer', prayer could have a +2 cost, and then if you started 'magery', magery could have a +4 cost... etc.
Anyways, just out of my ass.
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Shadowraith
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| (member) |
| 12/10/07 11:50 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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I like this idea, but limited to what level skills/spells? cut off at to make dedicated guilds unique?
| Charon |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/10/07 03:57 PM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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That, SW, is the million dollar question
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Shadowraith
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| (member) |
| 12/10/07 06:41 PM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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I have started putting it together to do a little testing (and look over skills/spells in general).
Currently it is called the Polymath guild (google the name) and I am putting in only skills/spells level 9 or less.
Will do some testing to see how it works out. Basically i think it would be fun and cool to start, but then later you'll miss out on the advnaced power of a dedicated guild, but might be a nice way to get a feel for things.
| Azarepth |
| (stranger) |
| 12/11/07 09:57 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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While it doesn't fit with the polymath theme, what about requiring interaction with other guild members to gain their strengths? For example, I kill an arch-mage and cut the brain from the corpse. When I eat it, I temporarily gain arch-mage abilities (or perhaps the capacity to train a subset of abilities). The limiting factors would be:
- Duration
- Capped skill/spell level
- Guild stacking limit
I know the pros/cons with this sort of setup would be much different, but at a glance it seems interesting.
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Cerberus
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| (addict) |
| 12/11/07 10:58 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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I happen to like both of these ideas, but see them in very different lights. To be succinct, I believe Azarepth's idea would be better off as a power yielded to recepients of high * levels of the ghouling spell, or as another race or guild entirely.
The polymath is a beautiful idea (it's basically the newbie guild revisited) but one that I think could be expanded upon. Perhaps by allowing a Polymath to level in the Polymath only to a certain point, and then join the guild to which their skills/spells most fit, losing the vast majority of skills/spells that don't fit that guild. This would stop people from having to remake characters after they've decided what they like, and may guide them toward a class they wouldn't have otherwise considered.
Or maybe that idea isn't well thought out. I'm totally enamored with the idea of a race/guild/item ability that allows you to consume foe's powers (anyone seen Heroes recently? heh) right now.
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Shadowraith
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| (member) |
| 12/11/07 11:16 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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Hehe, the heroes thing is cute, maybe ill just code Sylar to go around whacking HM's
As far as polymath, the thought so far is that at some point they will get frustrated by their limited power and then "graduate" to a dedicated guild.
The question is do I reimburse spent devs. I say no because if I do then someone will level up in the easy Poly guild then switch to a guild where it is hard to level up.
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Cerberus
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| 12/11/07 11:26 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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In that case, I agree, and retract the idea to allow them to switch guilds at all. If Polymath is easy to level in, and we allow switching of guilds with retention of level you run into the same problem as with dev reimbursement for knowledgeable players. If I level up using only the spells in the arch-mage guild, training fighter combat skills for my combat, then switch to the AM guild I wind up avoiding the poorer devs of the AM guild and the difficulties of early combat in it (although I'm told that guilds no longer modify the hp/mp players get... which irks me for some reason), without losing anything of note. This would be compounded by reimbursing devs for lost skills, but not circumvented by not reimbursing the devs for lost skills - all it would take is knowledge of what the guild you're transferring into has before hand.
The other option is to actually give Polymaths a skill/spell/ability that reincarnates them into another guild (either of their choosing or that is closest to their current training) and imposes some penalty on xp or devs. I think a skill trainable with every dev type and a hard cap of 100% would be best - at 100% you get the least amount of loss when you reinc, anything less and you get greater losses. This would both hinder their Polymath experience (so they aren't using all their devs in xp-giving skills) and afford a way to regulate (to some degree) the power level upon transfering guilds.
| Muod |
| (member) |
| 12/11/07 11:26 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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funny, I admin'd a mud that we developed a classless system, it actually came out very very good, I have one warning, you have to be VERY careful about mixing magics from different guilds, it easy to find a way to abuse that when you are able to tap such a variety of spells. but it does and can work great. personally i'm for it, it means no cookie cutter classes and you can personalize what you want.
| Charon |
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| 12/11/07 11:33 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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I think regardless of how it's done it has to be severly limited, especially in magic. Say only two casting skills allowed or something like that.
Training to only level 9 isn't feasable for a guild, leveling up past that point would be very difficult.
Combat I think would work out fine as it would only limit upper level fighter skills that IMHO should stay unique to fighters.
There was an AM spell, I can't recall what it was called, but it allowed people to temporarily gain the ability to cast spells from other guilds. Perhaps the polymath guild could be built off of a similar concept?
The way it worked to my understanding was the arch-mage would (I can't recall the name of the actual spell so I just called it 'steal spell'):
cast *6 steal spell at harold with ressurection
Then for the duration of that spell, which was several minutes, that person could cast ressurection. Harold would still be able to cast it without impairment.
It could be an interesting concept.. I wouldn't mind playing with designing such a guild.
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Shadowraith
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| (member) |
| 12/11/07 11:39 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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It is meant to be limiting. So we will see how it works out limitingit to skills/spells at level 9
| Charon |
| (enthusiast) |
| 12/11/07 11:43 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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That will be too much limiting I think. You can't have a HM with no spells or skills over level 9.
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Shadowraith
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| (member) |
| 12/11/07 12:59 PM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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Jack of all trades, master of none is the intent. You can graduate to a regular guild most likely, but im not sure about selling devs back
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Shadowraith
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| (member) |
| 12/14/07 07:37 AM |
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Re: Hypothesis - Classless Darke
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Closing this, thanks for the discussion. Will not be happening at this time.