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#2163 - 09/11/08 02:10 PM
Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
[Re: MacTORG]
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Onslaught
stranger
Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 21
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I don't intend to be rude, but I think your comments are completely niave. Not because you intend to be but you clearly either aren't playing lately, or aren't capable of taking on the perspective of a: new players or b: players who haven't been here for 8 years and have ridiculous stored gear capabilities (or insert however they have access)
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1) A loss of interaction and bartering. When one or two players can completely supply their own needs, there is little need to negotiate with others.
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What bartering are you talking about? We have 1 active armour tink, who charges 1 MILLION mcgrail to have a thranx armour suit crafted (this doesn't even count TA and fort costs). Not because he's a dick, but because _he can_ he's the only show in town, we have no choice. How long do you think it takes to earn 1 million mcgrail? Forget weapons and anything else. There is no bartering because there is no player base. There are exactly 0.0 weapon crafters that are active. This means weapons and weapon runes are 100% unavailable on this mud. How can you even think this proposal has a negative side effect in this area when these resources simply aren't available, *period* to be bartered for, and mcgrail has absolutely no value because of it. Do you expect someone to spend 1,000 hours, earning mcgrail just to get laen crafted which can be looted in 20 seconds? Get real. All of your arguments in this debate fall completely flat i the face of darkemud reality.
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2) A reduction in full time crafters. Why play a tinker/chanter when everyone has an alt to switch to make their own things? This will harm newbies the most, since they are the ones most in need of the "usuals" being around.
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This will benefit newbies most. I just restaretd after 1.5 years (dorne/corsix) and the only reason I'm even capable of playing is because some random guy I didn't know donated gear to me. The only enchanter/tinekr that could chant and make weps and high end stuff was removed for multiplaying (justified, but crushign to those of us who have not)
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3) Devaluation of crafting labor. Granted, the cms system combined with the ability to craft and fight simultaneously has already made most crafting essentially free. But this is just the final nail in the coffin.
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Devaluation of labor? I'm having to pay 170,000 mcgrail for 9 armour runes that take probably 8 minutes to do. Again, do you even play this game? Or are you just talking theory craft here?
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4) Favors those with greater play time excessively. At least before you could play a guild with few players and be useful. Now, those guys who can mud 150 hours a week will have an alt in your guild that will render you pointless.
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What interactive game in existance doesn't reward those who play more often than others? I don't see how this comment applies to anything in this thread.
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5) Removes an incentive to convince a friend to play. No need to convince a friend to come play a chanter when you can just make one as an alt.
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You're acting like every player who plays darke is going to be inclined to have 6 or 7 alts at level 30+ to suit every possible need and scenario. Not to mention the fact that you can't lock from your own hiatus enchanter, (amoung other things)
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In addition, I question the validity of your justification for this change. You make it sound as though the essential equipment for play is being monopolized and is hard to acquire. But in reality, tinkers are the most common guild and convincing them to make things isn't -that- challenging, especially if you're actually willing to pay for it. Enchanters, while certainly an added bonus, are not essential for survival, and there's a decent number of them too. And remember, you already have the option to hiatus to a different guild if there's something you just can't live without - the restriction of you having to play them for a while only helps the market if there's truly a shortage of that good.
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I'm just throwing out this entire paragraph here at the end as, well....see the above. I really am not trying to insult you but it's hard to have a basis for debate when you don't seem to grasp the basic realities of the game we're both playing.
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#2165 - 09/11/08 02:54 PM
Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
[Re: Byakko]
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Onslaught
stranger
Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 21
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I'm not getting antsy at all. And my comments may seem insulting because I simply don't think you ahve any grasp of this game.
When you can sit here and tell me that quicker hiatus will devalue currency and labor, in a game where mcgrail has absolutely no value and people are paying 1 million mcgrail for suits of armour (not even complete suits mind you). This tells me you have absolutely no grasp on reality of this game. It's not even an insult it's just a fact.
If lowering hiatus levels has all these effects, then by your logic the entire hiatus system should in itself be removed, as the delay time has no real bearing other than 'the time it takes' to cause all these same problems.
You can't attract new players to a mud that is logistically not viable to play. There are tons and tons of other mud solutions that new gamers will go to that they don't have to spend 6 months developing a 'network' of friends jsut so they can compete in pvp or something. I'm sorry I just don't understand any of your comments or how they apply to this mud whatsoever.
This "network" skill you seem to be talking about. How about you answer some basic questions since a logic debate is clearly not getting through to you.
Right now, who shoudl I "network" with to get weapons and weapon runes? - answer, there is no one
Why should a new player who logs in stay in this game if the above sentance is true? - answer, he won't, he'll find another mud where he can actually get a weapon to fight with that doesn't suck.
This game is entirely completely about resources and resource management. And the primary one being players. You're not going to attract new players when you can't even provide them a workable game environment, and that's what you clearly don't grasp.
Again, I coulud go on and on but it almost seems pointless when we clearly don't have the same priorities goals or any common ground to have this debate with. Let's just agree to disagree.
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#2166 - 09/11/08 03:21 PM
Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
[Re: Byakko]
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Valens
stranger
Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1
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Onslaught's plight is no different than any other new player, so it is not that unique. I too, would love to have a weapon crafted, or better armor made, but as a new player, I have no chance of getting that done because I have VERY limited ways of making money (I am an enchanter, but don't have any high level enchants yet and I can't kill anything to earn the cash via combat). Have you started a new character in the last few days? If not, then I have to say you are out of touch with how it is getting started.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that this solution be permanent, and never changed or modified. So this is not a long-term solution, only short term. I can say, it is hard to recruit new players when you give them very little to start with, and no way to ever 'get the good stuff'.
Your brainstorms are ok, but not a tangible solution, with the exception of the NPCs, which would have to either a) be so expensive to be prohibitive again, or b) cheap enough to use, that it would continue to devalue crafting/economy.
Creating spells in other classes is a BAD idea, then no one would need anyone else, and all your complaints against reducing the hiatus time apply to this arguments, but even more.
Player shops are a cool idea, as long as there are players available to put stuff up there and for prices that are reasonable and do not continue to trash the economy. Again, this is our problem.
I think lowering the hiatus time is a good idea, linking all the hiatus timers together so you will always have to wait the specific time, I think 1 day is too short, I would lean towards 3-7 days, with 5 being my choice. You still have the max hiatus character rules and levels, which could be modified as well.
Just my 2 cents...well maybe 1, I will post more later I suspect.
Valens
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#2167 - 09/11/08 03:33 PM
Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
[Re: Onslaught]
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Byakko
stranger
Registered: 06/05/08
Posts: 13
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The lack of value of mcgrail is indeed a problem (as I originally stated). However, it is also easy for a tinker to make things. If a tinker is charging you 1 million mcgrail for a suit, it sounds like he either doesn't like you, or simply has no real need for mcgrail (again, the lack of value of mcgrail should be addressed... but is perhaps beyond the scope of this thread).
I am convinced that if you put enough effort into networking and making friends you can find a way to get the equipment you need, perhaps without even having to pay anything. I know of quite a few players who are on a lot who either can make, or have access to equipment. The requirement for social interaction and teamwork is one of the reasons to play multiplayer games and should be encouraged rather than sidelined.
I don't know of any games where you have access to the best equipment from the get-go. You either have to find or trade for upgrades as you progress. What fun would a game be if you simply had a free ticket for everything? I have played as a low leveled character with nothing but iron and things like dwarven chain. It's difficult, but viable. As it should be as a new character just starting out. Most new players I have spoken with are more concerned with figuring out the game vice power-leveling and the pace is appropriate for them. So your concern for new players quitting over not having access to the best gear is unfounded, imho. Indeed, it typically serves as something to encourage them to play more - something to strive towards.
The current Hiatus system is meant to add spice to an experienced player's gaming by allowing them to play something different for a while. Granted, it is occasionally used for ulterior purposes, but per the rules you're not supposed to share things between your characters. Allowing rapid changing between a large variety of characters would be far more prone to use for alts for crafting/creating purposes which would heighten the associated problems.
btw, I really doubt that you're convincing anyone that I have "no grasp of this game." Try to be a little more constructive, instead of resorting to insult-flinging.
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#2168 - 09/11/08 03:42 PM
Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
[Re: Byakko]
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Byakko
stranger
Registered: 06/05/08
Posts: 13
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Valens: Getting started isn't supposed to be extremely easy. Things can be done to make it easier if that's the consensus, 'tho. However, as a new enchanter striving to increase in power, is hiatusing to yet another new character something that really interests you? Your path to better equipment will likely come far faster by sticking to your guns, and achieving a high enough enchanter level that you can trade for other things you need. I have already seen you working on this, so it's just a matter of time.
The key to using alternatives (whether NPC or alternate class skills/spells) is to always have them handicapped/limited in some way to make the primary's much more highly desired. You are indeed right in saying that having duplicates would have the same negative effects as the multi-hiatusing. The main point is that there are alternatives to this, if things truly get that bad on darke (which imho, it isn't right now).
There has also historically been a problem with making "temporary" fixes. They tend to become permanent no matter what the original intent, especially if it's something that makes a player's life easier, as this would. (btw, make a game too easy and it will ultimately no longer be fun to play and lose players despite the initial rush of interest - there are many examples of this)
Edited by Byakko (09/11/08 03:48 PM)
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#2169 - 09/11/08 03:49 PM
Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
[Re: Byakko]
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Onslaught
stranger
Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 21
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Byakko just enough already, your opinion is really invalid in 120% of any possible logic. You're arguing that everything is ok on a mud that averages 8 players, that'se based upon the importance of player driven economy.
there's just no point debating this any more
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#2172 - 09/12/08 01:34 AM
Re: Hiatus Rules Change Suggestion
[Re: Kim]
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carmy
member
Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 164
Loc: South Korea
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The honest truth here is that if the game isn't made easier to start on, nobody's gonna start on it. I was a semi-active weapon tinker and cided when I was looted. I don't want to spend all that time getting shit back, shit that took me 3 months to get.
Depending on the guild you choose (Which, I think you should have the option of playing anything you want and it being a viable choice) you aren't really able to do combat to earn mcgrail. Once you get the mcgrail, it's true, people aren't going to do you any favors. The ones who are in a position to do you favors are complete fucking assholes. Go figure.
I also realize that there are a hell of a lot of tinkers on the MUD right now, but it's still difficult to get them to make stuff for you when they're not particularly 'active'.
As it is, this MUD requires a hell of a lot of work for very little reward. On a MUD where there are rarely social interactions at all, and it's about individual gain, there isn't anything to gain, and what you can gain, is at this point, close to impossible to gain.
I really think that making NPCs that can do chants, or crafting if provided the materials is a great answer to the problem.
If each new player were provided with free iron equipment and a basic weapon they could use to gain some mcgrail and 'equip' themselves from these NPCs, then they'd be on their way to at least earning what they need to compete in the economy as it is now.
I also feel this option gives each guild an equal opportunity to earn mcgrail at the start. I don't see any drawbacks to having shitty NPC crafters and enchanters. It won't detract from player interactions because if you want decent equipment, only players will be able to provide it.
Player run shops would be great too, so that when you play in South Korea, you don't need to wait for someone in America to log on to buy certain goods. A 13 hour difference is the difference between playing alone and playing with other people.
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