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#2549 - 04/18/12 10:03 PM The Issue of Haste
Din Administrator Offline
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Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 16
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Hey guys. I've been doing a lot of thinking since i came back to full admin duty a couple weeks ago and ive been bothered by the issue of how some guilds get haste, how some guilds dont, and how incredibly reliant the combat system is on having it as far as being able to fight and get experience at even a half decent rate. I want to address the issue and balance it out in a way that would be fair for everyone and not leave too many people at a disadvantage over others, but not give too many people an insurmountable advantage either like some guilds currently have. I want to hear all of your suggestions while i formulate my ideas from both my own head and from what i see posted here.
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#2550 - 04/18/12 10:15 PM Re: The Issue of Haste [Re: Din]
Jedian Offline
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Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 34
Haste with the current combat system is a major advantage. There are a couple ways to balance this out. First, make all haste spells/abilities only add an additional attack per round. Currently, it adds an additional attack per limb per round.

Next, base the number of attacks from your attack skill %. You get your second attack at 50%, third attack at 150%, fourth attack at 300% and fifth attack at 450%. You could toggle the use of multiple attacks. Also, to provide some more balance, you could add a cumulative 20% penalty. So if you had 150% attack skill, your first attack would be at 150%, 2nd attack at 130% and 3rd attack at 110%.

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#2551 - 04/18/12 11:30 PM Re: The Issue of Haste [Re: Jedian]
Jedian Offline
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Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 34
Based on conversation on Darke:

Change combat so the amount of criticals you do per round is not restricted by your number of attacks per round.

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#2552 - 04/19/12 03:55 AM Re: The Issue of Haste [Re: Jedian]
carmy Offline
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Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 164
Loc: South Korea
The attack skill adding attacks per round, is this independent of wield? Or, should wield also be considered? There are some spells that add quite a lot of attack skill, but hardly any wield. If we're basing attacks per round on attack skill alone, we could probably see chars gaining quite a lot of attack skill simply from a couple of spells. In essence, reducing haste to 1 extra attack, and then gaining it again from getting an attack boost from a couple of extra spells seems counter intuitive...
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#2553 - 04/19/12 05:44 AM Re: The Issue of Haste [Re: carmy]
Rancid Offline
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Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 49
Why would hasted combat not take into account the number of limbs? If that was the case no one would ever choose to be a thranx and those characters that have a thranx character would be entitled to a reinc considering they built their characters off the current system.

I think the real issue is a matter of balance for characters that do not get a haste currently. I have been using the haste stone in Din's area, which is not 100%, with my characters that dont get haste for a while. Its a pain in the ass but its what it is.

The way to balance it is to give pure casters a pet that gives them certain combat spells at higher levels. This discussion was broached many moons ago and is still a valid solution, every pure caster that has issues with no haste have pets that are totally worthless but could be put to good use in the application of a haste solution for these classes. There are many cool potentials with this idea that were discussed then. The best I heard of during that time was a single, "master" pet for pure casters that can lead the rest of the casters pets, buffing them and making the group much more powerful. Considering 15 pets can not come close to standing up against a single player character at higher levels it would solve two problems. One it would make pets viable again (which currently spending 72 real life hours making necro pets is a waste of time which is pathetic), two it would give pure casters the ability to get a version of haste which would make combat more entertaining and easier to do once they make some obscene magic level. As the discussion went before this would be a single, "master" pet. You can only have one in a room at a time and they are none transferable as a pet.

It would be awesome if more than one character was required to wipe an entire kill room of pets in a castle again. I remember the day when 5 dracoliches would kill anyone. Vytek, Sagan, Zanth anyone. Those days are long gone. 5 dracoliches are funny these days. It was neat when an actual party was required to take out a room full of pets with its master. I would love to see a return to that.

One a seperate note, Thieves need their dance of daggers fixed. From my understanding its not really worth a shit as a haste and that needs to be fixed in this process. Thieves have been shorted for too long.

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#2554 - 04/19/12 06:10 AM Re: The Issue of Haste [Re: Rancid]
Jedian Offline
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Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 34
You all have missed my 2nd post where amount of criticals would no longer be determined by number of attacks. As long as a person's attack hit, a number of criticals would be generated based on the weapon. Haste would only provide additional physical attacks that would not add extra criticals.
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#2555 - 04/19/12 07:35 PM Re: The Issue of Haste [Re: Jedian]
carmy Offline
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Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 164
Loc: South Korea
That's useful against mobs, but not particularly useful for PK. If I'm only trying to land one attack as opposed to 4 attacks, on someone with really great armour, it seems to me that I'd have a lot less of a chance of any crits going off.
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#2556 - 04/19/12 09:37 PM Re: The Issue of Haste [Re: Din]
Din Administrator Offline
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Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 16
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
One idea i've been tossing around is to give guild specific hastes to work in line with the specialties of the non haste guilds.

For example, with enchanters i was thinking of adding a perm weapon LT called 'Enchanter's Blade', which would likely be a very high level enchant (somewhere in the 20s magic level range). The spell will work as a hybrid type of claimed weapon, it will not make the weapon unusable for anyone except the caster like claim did, but it will give wield bonus and haste effects if the caster who did the enchant is using the weapon, nothing will happen if someone else uses it.

For elems, i was pondering a temporary non-lockable spell they can cast on weapons that serve as 'elemental enhancements' which energize the weapon to make it lighter and faster, hence allowing haste.

With necros, i was thinking of adding a new high level pet (maybe name it something like unholy bishop or something) that instead of serving as a combat type pet, would instead be horrible in combat but would serve as someone who could spell the necro up with things such as haste and possibly a few other things.

These are just ideas im concocting from both my brainstorming and listening to other peoples ideas, keep shooting the ideas at me while i decide on the best option how to handle this issue.

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#2557 - 04/19/12 10:18 PM Re: The Issue of Haste [Re: Din]
garin Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 9
As a thief, I agree with Rancid. DoD really isn't haste. Ideally, thieves need a top to bottom overhaul... A lot of people say they are OP because poison lore gives ridiculous amounts of xp (steal pick pocket and pick locks all suck ass now...). but they don't realize, I'm at almost 50S and still don't have all the major thief skills at a decent level...

That aside.

F being creative. Keep your job simple and give the other classes haste. They'll still get crap for C devs anyway, so it's not like haste will suddenly and majorly unbalance combat since they'll have to work twice as hard to get the same skill levels.

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#2558 - 04/26/12 06:58 AM Re: The Issue of Haste [Re: Din]
Rancid Offline
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Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 49
 Originally Posted By: Din
One idea i've been tossing around is to give guild specific hastes to work in line with the specialties of the non haste guilds.

For example, with enchanters i was thinking of adding a perm weapon LT called 'Enchanter's Blade', which would likely be a very high level enchant (somewhere in the 20s magic level range). The spell will work as a hybrid type of claimed weapon, it will not make the weapon unusable for anyone except the caster like claim did, but it will give wield bonus and haste effects if the caster who did the enchant is using the weapon, nothing will happen if someone else uses it.

For elems, i was pondering a temporary non-lockable spell they can cast on weapons that serve as 'elemental enhancements' which energize the weapon to make it lighter and faster, hence allowing haste.

With necros, i was thinking of adding a new high level pet (maybe name it something like unholy bishop or something) that instead of serving as a combat type pet, would instead be horrible in combat but would serve as someone who could spell the necro up with things such as haste and possibly a few other things.

These are just ideas im concocting from both my brainstorming and listening to other peoples ideas, keep shooting the ideas at me while i decide on the best option how to handle this issue.




These are great ideas, however they do not solve the necro problem of pets not being viable. I was thinking it could be a viable solution to their pets not being worth making anymore.

Honestly, its a waste of time making pets as a necro. For that matter its a waste of time making a necro. One Nethergeist takes something like 8 hours to make and is worthless in combat. On top of that its better to use dracoliches to guard because of lifesteal. It's pathetic. If you could make the master pet have very specialized casting abilities where it constantly spelled up the other pets in the room with diesel affects it would make the pets of every guild more viable.

You could actually use a single template for all 3 guilds master pets as far as buffs are concerned. It could spell up the creator of said pet with a haste affect when requested by the pet creator. You could even set it up where you could transfer ownership but it would only spellup the creator with spells. Just thinking out loud of some practical solutions to several problems.

I like streamlining in the beginning to fix the problems. If you or someone else would like to get creative down the road and individualize they would be great too, but this would be the fastest stop gap for haste and the issues with pets being worthless atm and combat being boring for casters with out unbalancing anything. It makes pets valuable again where they are really worthless at this time. It doesn't give the casters hasted combat early on. This keeps the balance in check. They have to become very high level casters to get the master pet. It gives pets the ability to actually guard castles while their masters are away where as one powerful character can take down a room of these right now.

The one problem I would foresee is some guy running around with the master pet and 14 other pets slaughtering everyone in sight. Oh, I could tell you whipper snappers a tale of dracoliches that would make your blood run cold for a week. Trust me there was a guy back in 1995 who held the mud hostage for a couple of days and I do not want a return to that. Perhaps, the master pet should be stationary. A divinity stone or some such. A conduit from one god or another that blesses that god's faithful servants. A statue of Marghuul, Risla, Elemental Plasma, Dragon, etc etc.

Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated.

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